Hi
Doing something similar in the mid 1960's we noticed that the local power
company did time correction just ahead oft 5 pm. You could start listening to
the time ticks on WWV or CHU at 4 pm and see them do the correction over the
hour. For what ever reason their daily correction was at least
Here's yet another way to monitor power line timekeeping...
This is about half a day from a webcam, taken at 15 minute
intervals by a PC, compressed to a 12 second animated GIF.
http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tec/mains-clock-ani.gif
/tvb
___
At 09:54 PM 7/3/2011, Tom Van Baak wrote:
This is about half a day from a webcam, taken at 15 minute
intervals by a PC, compressed to a 12 second animated GIF.
http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tec/mains-clock-ani.gif
That's funny...I picked up a mains clock yesterday and started
something
: Jim Lux jim...@earthlink.net
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 9:34:36 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
On 6/27/11 9:43 AM, Mark Spencer wrote:
I'm not sure if the results I am seeing are valid or not. My signal source
is a 16 volt doorbell transformer
On 06/25/2011 09:34 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
We are more a group of experimenters than lamenters, so
here's an open invitation to all of you in the US to join me
on a 60 Hz measurement party, starting as soon as you
can and lasting as many weeks or months that it takes to
get interesting
Hi Kasper,
Your picture shows what looks like a battery, but I do not see that included on
the schematic ?
This seems overly complicated seeing as how there are opto-couplers designed for
this purpose. They even have Schmitt trigger functions incorporated. All in a
8
pin dip style package
That sounds like a recipe for excitement - DC current into seawater
should generate hydrogen on one and and oxygen on the other electrode.
At 3000 amps, rather a lot of it.
I imagine they keep the current density low enough that the gas is
absorbed into the water as it's evolved. But
mean a second wire ? Surely you do not mean they are using the earth
(dirt) as a
return path ? That would be terribly inefficient !
Down here in Australia, Single Wire Earth Return (SWER) is common for long
rural lines. They run at 12.7 kv (one phase of a 22 kv 3 phase line). At the
Did it sound like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return
On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 7:14 PM, WB6BNQ wb6...@cox.net wrote:
Will,
OK, that sounds normal to me. Originally, your first description made it
seem as
something completely different.
I see nothing wrong with
measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 11:54:32 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Did it sound like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return
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and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Hmmm. The Single Wire Earth Return scheme seems like a great cause for
the
stray voltage that affects farmers:
http://articles.ky3.com/2011-03-18/stray-voltage_29143748
LaJeunesse rlajeune...@sbcglobal.net
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
Hmmm. The Single Wire Earth Return scheme seems like a great cause for
the
stray voltage
wondering if changes
in line voltage could be confusing things.
Regards
Mark Spencer
- Original Message
From: Morris Odell vilgo...@bigpond.net.au
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 4:31:26 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
mean a second wire
On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 12:34:41PM -0700, Tom Van Baak wrote:
We are more a group of experimenters than lamenters, so
here's an open invitation to all of you in the US to join me
on a 60 Hz measurement party, starting as soon as you
can and lasting as many weeks or months that it takes to
get
On 6/27/11 9:43 AM, Mark Spencer wrote:
I'm not sure if the results I am seeing are valid or not.My signal source
is a 16 volt doorbell transformer that feeds a voltage divider which in turn
feeds my 5370B with an approx 2 volt sine wave. Setting the trigger point on
the 5370B to 0 volts
On 06/26/2011 04:04 AM, Hal Murray wrote:
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said:
It could be interesting just to monitor the phase of the L1, L2 and L3
phases of the house. :)
Is 3 phase standard in (some/most/?) European homes?
We are off-topic here, so let's keep this sub-thread short.
I
In India we have 50 Hz +- 2Hz !! Clocks that run on mains frequency needed to
be modified with a NS chip that ran off a NTSC color xtal.
Homes used to be All electric in the old days with 3 phase (Like mine). I
have had the neutral in the cable burn up due to road digging and lost a lot of
On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 10:04, Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net wrote:
Is 3 phase standard in (some/most/?) European homes?
Just for the record:
In Singapore, 3-phase is common, except at the smallest possible loads (a 50
sqft corner stand). You get 4-wire, 3-phase as your normal supply.
A simple way to measure the line frequency (up to a given precision...)
is to watch on a waterfall program to one of its harmonics.
In the following picture you can see the 53rd harmonic of the 50 Hz line
frequency in Italy. It was captured by just connecting a random length
of wire to the line
A simple way to measure the line frequency (up to a given precision...)
is to watch on a waterfall program to one of its harmonics.
In the following picture you can see the 53rd harmonic of the 50 Hz line
frequency in Italy. It was captured by just connecting a random length
of wire to the line
Don,
I haven't looked into it for several years, well over 12, but I will take a
gander at this. What brand was the converter?
After reading about everyone out of the US having 3 phase, it makes one
wonder why we didn't do that years ago. As of now, the only 3 phase lines
around here are close
On 6/26/2011 6:03 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
Alberto,
That's a cute plot. I see 53 x 50 = 2650. What is the x axis scale?
Tom,
that capture was taken a few months ago, from memory it should cover about
15 or 20 minutes.
But I'm curious -- the pending issue with 60 Hz in the US is more about
On 6/26/11 8:34 AM, Alberto di Bene wrote:
A simple way to measure the line frequency (up to a given precision...)
is to watch on a waterfall program to one of its harmonics.
In the following picture you can see the 53rd harmonic of the 50 Hz line
frequency in Italy. It was captured by just
In message 4e066fac.5090...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes:
Infact, Poul-Henning and I had the idea to test this on our grid to see
what kind of performance we would get out of it. He sent me a
transformer prepped for the work, but it seems both of us got caught up
doing other
I quite like your generator description of huge rotating lumps of
copper-ensnarled iron. It brings me back to around 20 years ago, when I
was a plant electrician at an older railcar manufacturer. They had huge
open-frame synchronous motors, from around the 1930's, that ran their air
compressors,
On 6/26/11 10:38 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
My idea for measuring this, was to measure the time from the
utc second from a GPS receiver to the first zero-crossing of
the grid, and try plot Magnus and my measurements together.
So, to make this easy on folks..
Seems the easiest PC hardware
Will Matney wrote:
snip
As of now, the only 3 phase lines around here are close to the major
roads where business resides, but when you get into the residential
areas, it's only single phase on the poles.
Best,
Will
Will,
I am going to have to disagree
Sorry,
I guess the blue color did not come through.
OH WELL !
BillWB6BNQ
WB6BNQ wrote:
Will Matney wrote:
snip
As of now, the only 3 phase lines around here are close to the major
roads where business resides, but when you get into the residential
areas, it's
In Australia, power is reticulated as three phases of 415V.
In suburban streets, 4 wires provide neutral and 240 Volts,
each house is supplied with one, two or three phases as they need.
I had 3 phases installed as 2nd hand machinery with 3 phase motors was
cheaper than single phase items
Bill,
I wish it was that way here, but it's not, only along the highway where the
general business is located. Now, across the Ohio River, on the Huntington,
WV side, it is more insudtrial, and they do have it in places as your
thinking of, all through town. It's like that from Huntington WV,
Hah, I really mis-spelled industrial didn't I?
Sorry folks, the spell check doesn't work on my e-mail now for some odd
reason.
Best,
Will
*** REPLY SEPARATOR ***
On 6/26/2011 at 7:55 PM Will Matney wrote:
Bill,
I wish it was that way here, but it's not, only along the
Will,
What you describe does NOT make sense. When you say nuetral or ground do you
mean a second wire ? Surely you do not mean they are using the earth (dirt) as
a
return path ? That would be terribly inefficient ! Equally, if the 220 center
tap is earthed along with one side of the higher
On Jun 25, 2011, at 7:31 PM, Jim Lux wrote:
although it's a lot easier if one of the links is down and they're running
with the ocean return path.
Ocean return path? Please say more.
I picture a gigantic carbon electrode stuck in the ocean by a power station -
rather like the core of a
Bill,
I'm not sure what the voltage is, as I remember asking about it at one
time, when the transformer went belly up, and I think he said 4 kV, but I'm
not sure. Now, as to the neutral wire, it runs along the poles just under
the hot, and about even with the transformer. It's a two wire system,
Will,
OK, that sounds normal to me. Originally, your first description made it seem
as
something completely different.
I see nothing wrong with what you are now describing. The fact that they are
feeding short blocks via the REAR ALLEY from the main street is not unheard
of. And using just 2
As for monitoring 60 Hz, I was doing some on line research, and found some
interesting power line frequency meters at:
http://www.laurels.com/frequency.htm
Surprisingly affordable (less than $300).
Tom Frank
For this experiment you want an [accumulated] phase error meter,
not a line
Message-
From: Will Matney
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 1:11 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
I quite like your generator description of huge rotating lumps of
copper-ensnarled iron. It brings me back to around 20 years ago, when I
was a plant
On 6/26/11 6:29 PM, Thomas A Frank wrote:
On Jun 25, 2011, at 7:31 PM, Jim Lux wrote:
although it's a lot easier if one of the links is down and they're running with
the ocean return path.
Ocean return path? Please say more.
I picture a gigantic carbon electrode stuck in the ocean by a
(who heaves a nostalgic sigh just thinking about those fine old
engines of progress)
-Original Message-
From: Will Matney
Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 1:11 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
I quite like your generator description of huge rotating lumps
On 6/26/11 8:23 PM, Jim Lux wrote:
I just have to look for a set of towers with a single duplex cable.
(actually a bit of googling found a report
www.kentercanyon.org/index.php/download-public-docs/doc/25/raw
)
OK.. the electrodes are about a mile off shore from Gladstone's-4-Fish
on PCH
Here's another thought on all of this. How will this effect the newer
electronic watthour meters at peoples homes? I remember looking at the
schematics on one of these, and I don't remember seeing an internal time
base, crystal, or resonator in the circuit, so I suppose they might get
their timing
In message 4e07f7c7.9070...@earthlink.net, Jim Lux writes:
That sounds like a recipe for excitement - DC current into
seawater should generate hydrogen on one and and oxygen on the other
electrode. At 3000 amps, rather a lot of it.
Actually you get chlorine gas at one end, can't remember
In message 201106270013470285.1b239...@smtp.citynet.net, Will Matney writes
:
Here's another thought on all of this. How will this effect the newer
electronic watthour meters at peoples homes? I remember looking at the
schematics on one of these, and I don't remember seeing an internal time
base,
Hi Jim,
I was studying that area in Google Earth. There is detail for under water
objects near the shore line.
There are some objects that look like troughs in ocean floor just south of the
location that are grouped in pairs. Taking a measure from the first pair does
place it about 6000 feet
We are more a group of experimenters than lamenters, so
here's an open invitation to all of you in the US to join me
on a 60 Hz measurement party, starting as soon as you
can and lasting as many weeks or months that it takes to
get interesting plots.
There's no agenda; we measure because we can.
On 06/25/2011 09:34 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
We are more a group of experimenters than lamenters, so
here's an open invitation to all of you in the US to join me
on a 60 Hz measurement party, starting as soon as you
can and lasting as many weeks or months that it takes to
get interesting plots.
Great idea Tom!
I'm safely on my 50 Hz grid over here, so I let you guys play around in
your end.
Maybe we should do something on our grid, we are a few time-nuts on the
nordic grid.
Cheers,
Magnus
Magnus,
Yes, after the current 60 Hz excitement here in the US winds down
my longer-term
Hi Tom,
On 06/26/2011 01:07 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
Magnus,
Yes, after the current 60 Hz excitement here in the US winds down
my longer-term idea is for many of us to continuously monitor our
local power frequency with some sort of web-uploading TAPR kit
and then have an informal international
Extrapolating further, I wonder if anyone has done common view
time transfer based on synchronized power grids? Although not
as precise as LF or TV or GPS methods it would make a nice
demo of the concept.
/tvb
Interesting idea.. but here's a potential wrench in the works.. the
phase in the
On 06/26/2011 01:07 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
Extrapolating further, I wonder if anyone has done common view
time transfer based on synchronized power grids? Although not
as precise as LF or TV or GPS methods it would make a nice
demo of the concept.
/tvb
http://n1.taur.dk/plcv/
(with
: [time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party
On 06/26/2011 01:07 AM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
Extrapolating further, I wonder if anyone has done common view
time transfer based on synchronized power grids? Although not
as precise as LF or TV or GPS methods it would make a nice
demo of the concept.
/tvb
On 06/26/2011 02:18 AM, li...@lazygranch.com wrote:
RDS is a frequency standard?
RDS can give time of day, notice how it says FM radio RDS+pilot CV so
the 19 kHz pilot tone is used in conjunction with RDS.
The danger in that is that RDS time of day setting may be bogus, since
some
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org said:
It could be interesting just to monitor the phase of the L1, L2 and L3
phases of the house. :)
Is 3 phase standard in (some/most/?) European homes?
In the US, houses and small businesses get 120/240. That's 3 wires, 240
single phase, center tap, with the
I wish we had three phase everywhere, including our homes. If one wants to
run anything like a lathe or mill of any size, we have to use converters,
or starters (static converters). When I had my shop, I contacted AEP about
installing three phase, and the cost of the transformer bank alone was
Now you can get true three phase delta, with speed control, from single
phase 220, non rotary. With wise buying, I got one to run a 1 hp mill
motor for around $100 inflated rasbuckniks.
Don
Will Matney
I wish we had three phase everywhere, including our homes. If one wants
to
run anything like
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