Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

On 5/28/2018 6:30 AM, Hans Åberg via Unicode wrote: Unifying these would make a real mess of lower casing! German has a special sign ß for "ss", without upper capital version. You may want to retract the second part of that

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

On Mon, 28 May 2018 10:08:30 +0200 Hans Åberg via Unicode wrote: > > On 28 May 2018, at 03:39, Garth Wallace wrote: > > The fact that they do not denote the same width in cents in Arabic > > music as they do in Western modern classical does not matter.

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

> On 28 May 2018, at 11:05, Julian Bradfield via Unicode > wrote: > > On 2018-05-28, Hans Åberg via Unicode wrote: >>> On 28 May 2018, at 03:39, Garth Wallace wrote: On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 3:36 PM, Hans Åberg

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

> On 28 May 2018, at 03:39, Garth Wallace wrote: > >> On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 3:36 PM, Hans Åberg wrote: >> The flats and sharps of Arabic music are semantically the same as in Western >> music, departing from Pythagorean tuning, then, but the microtonal

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

The flats and sharps of Arabic music are semantically the same as in Western music, departing from Pythagorean tuning, then, but the microtonal accidentals are different: they simply reused some that were available. By contrast, Persian music notation invented new microtonal accidentals, called

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

Philippe is entirely correct here. The fact that a symbol has somewhat different meanings in different contexts does not mean that it is actually multiple visually identical symbols. Otherwise Unicode would be re-encoding the Latin alphabet many, many times over. During most of Bach's career, the

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

Even flat notes or rythmic and pause symbols in Western musical notations have different contextual meaning depending on musical keys at start of scores, and other notations or symbols added above the score. So their interpretation are also variable according to context, just like tuning in a

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

> On 17 May 2018, at 16:47, Garth Wallace via Unicode > wrote: > > On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 12:41 AM Hans Åberg wrote: > > > On 17 May 2018, at 08:47, Garth Wallace via Unicode > > wrote: > > > >> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 12:42

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 12:41 AM Hans Åberg wrote: > > > On 17 May 2018, at 08:47, Garth Wallace via Unicode > wrote: > > > >> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Hans Åberg via Unicode < > unicode@unicode.org> wrote: > >> > >> It would be best to encode

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

> On 17 May 2018, at 08:47, Garth Wallace via Unicode > wrote: > >> On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Hans Åberg via Unicode >> wrote: >> >> It would be best to encode the SMuFL symbols, which is rather comprehensive >> and include those: >>

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 12:42 AM, Hans Åberg via Unicode < unicode@unicode.org> wrote: > > > On 16 May 2018, at 00:48, Ken Whistler via Unicode > wrote: > > > > On 5/15/2018 2:46 PM, Markus Scherer via Unicode wrote: > >> I am proposing the addition of 2 new characters to

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

> On 16 May 2018, at 09:42, Hans Åberg via Unicode wrote: > >> On 16 May 2018, at 00:48, Ken Whistler via Unicode >> wrote: >> >>> A proposal should also show evidence of usage and glyph variations. >> >> And should probably refer to the

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

Hi Garth, You are right, I sent a similar posting to the list 3 years ago. at that time I was hoping get help from some of the more experienced members on the list to write a proposal. this is a very specialized job and it could take me months to figure out the process and learn the language. But

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

> On 16 May 2018, at 00:48, Ken Whistler via Unicode > wrote: > > On 5/15/2018 2:46 PM, Markus Scherer via Unicode wrote: >> I am proposing the addition of 2 new characters to the Musical Symbols table: >> >> - the half-flat sign (lowers a note by a quarter tone) >> -

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

What happened to the previous proposal? As I recall, there was some good discussion after an email from you back in 2015 < http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2015-m03/0118.html> and Michael Everson offered assistance, but no formal proposal has been submitted to the Documents Register

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

On 5/15/2018 2:46 PM, Markus Scherer via Unicode wrote: I am proposing the addition of 2 new characters to the Musical Symbols table: - the half-flat sign (lowers a note by a quarter tone) - the half-sharp sign (raises a note by a quarter tone) In an actual proposal, I

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 10:47 AM, Johnny Farraj via Unicode < unicode@unicode.org> wrote: > Dear Unicode list members, > > I wish to get feedback about a new symbol submission proposal. > Just to clarify, this is a discussion list where you may get some useful feedback. This is not where you

preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp symbols

Dear Unicode list members, I wish to get feedback about a new symbol submission proposal. Currently the Miscellaneous Symbols table (2600-26FF) includes the following characters: 266D ♭ MUSIC FLAT SIGN 266F ♯ MUSIC SHARP SIGN while the Musical Symbols table (1D100 - 1D1FF) includes the

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

On Sun, May 24, 2015 at 01:00:59AM +0200, Philippe Verdy wrote: 2015-05-23 20:50 GMT+02:00 Petr Tomasek toma...@etf.cuni.cz: Hm, it seems that there is much more to be encoded in Unicode than just the quarter-tone signs.. Clearly not a valid arguments against encoding a character.

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

2015-05-23 20:50 GMT+02:00 Petr Tomasek toma...@etf.cuni.cz: Hm, it seems that there is much more to be encoded in Unicode than just the quarter-tone signs.. Clearly not a valid arguments against encoding a character. There are plenty of characters still not encoded even in scripts already

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:07:38AM +0200, Werner LEMBERG wrote: That’s quite some variety. There are also the three-quarter flat and sharp in Western music to consider. I’ll be able to dig into this after I get back to Ireland from Sweden on Friday. You should check the Standard Music

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

On 31 Mar 2015, at 05:09, Asmus Freytag (t) asmus-...@ix.netcom.com wrote: On 3/30/2015 1:54 PM, Hans Aberg wrote: On 30 Mar 2015, at 00:49, Asmus Freytag (t) asmus-...@ix.netcom.com wrote: It would be worth to bring the collection of music symbols up to a more comprehensive set in one

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

Johnny Farraj johnnyfarraj at yahoo dot com wrote: The Arabic half-flat and half-sharp symbols do not mean exact quartertones, but that's understood by Arabic music performers as the exact intonation is then learned by ear. That fact does not make them impractical to use, as they are used

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

On 30 Mar 2015, at 00:49, Asmus Freytag (t) asmus-...@ix.netcom.com wrote: It would be worth to bring the collection of music symbols up to a more comprehensive set in one go, rather than to do it piecemeal. There is a similar issue to that of the math symbols, namely, one might add some

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

On 30 Mar 2015, at 23:13, Johnny Farraj johnnyfar...@yahoo.com wrote: The same problem arises in Arab music notation, Hi Hans, I'm not sure what you mean by that statement? The Arabic half-flat and half-sharp symbols do not mean exact quartertones, but that's understood by

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

On 31 Mar 2015, at 00:06, Doug Ewell d...@ewellic.org wrote: Johnny Farraj johnnyfarraj at yahoo dot com wrote: The Arabic half-flat and half-sharp symbols do not mean exact quartertones, but that's understood by Arabic music performers as the exact intonation is then learned by ear.

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

On 31 Mar 2015, at 00:48, Johnny Farraj johnnyfar...@yahoo.com wrote: That's a good point. I was thinking in the confines of equal temperament. The basis for music from Middle Ages, from West down to Persia at least, is the Pythagorean tuning. Then in Western art music, CPP (Common Practise

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

On 3/30/2015 1:54 PM, Hans Aberg wrote: On 30 Mar 2015, at 00:49, Asmus Freytag (t) asmus-...@ix.netcom.com wrote: It would be worth to bring the collection of music symbols up to a more comprehensive set in one go, rather than to do it piecemeal. There is a similar issue to that of the math

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

Johnny, I’m interested in working with you and Sami on this. These two characters are often referred to as quarter sharp and quarter flat as well. The symbols are also widely used outside Arabic music. The western classical tradition from the 20th century on is full of them. They're not

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

Wouldn't it be easier just to change the example glyphs for U+1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP and U+1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT? The ones currently in the charts do not appear to be in common use. The most common symbol for the quarter tone flat, from what I've gathered, is a

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

On 2015-03-29, Johnny Farraj johnnyfar...@yahoo.com wrote: Michael, Thanks for the swift response, and your interest. Your collaboration is greatly appreciated. Do you have any experience in submitting new Unicode character proposals? And/or with creating the reference copy of a symbol in

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

On 29 Mar 2015, at 19:53, Johnny Farraj johnnyfar...@yahoo.com wrote: Michael, Thanks for the swift response, and your interest. Your collaboration is greatly appreciated. My pleasure. Do you have any experience in submitting new Unicode character proposals? And/or with creating the

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

Shumays Subject: Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp Wouldn't it be easier just to change the example glyphs for U+1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP and U+1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT? The ones currently in the charts do

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

On 29 Mar 2015, at 22:02, Garth Wallace gwa...@gmail.com wrote: Wouldn't it be easier just to change the example glyphs for U+1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP and U+1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT? The ones currently in the charts do not appear to be in common use. It would be

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

On 29 Mar 2015, at 22:41, sami shumays abushum...@hotmail.com wrote: Just one comment: the reversed flat is not commonly used in Arabic notation, But is it used? it is primarily a Turkish symbol. The symbols Johnny is proposing are important so that we can have easy access to the symbols

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

On 29 Mar 2015, at 23:29, Garth Wallace gwa...@gmail.com wrote: Right, I was just pointing out that Turkish music is a potential complication if changing the glyph for MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT. Here's how I understand it: Arabic music - uses the flat-with-stroke exclusively as a

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

That’s quite some variety. There are also the three-quarter flat and sharp in Western music to consider. I’ll be able to dig into this after I get back to Ireland from Sweden on Friday. You should check the Standard Music Font Layout (SmuFL) for details; it also has a freely available font

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

On 3/29/2015 2:39 PM, Michael Everson wrote: On 29 Mar 2015, at 22:02, Garth Wallace gwa...@gmail.com wrote: Wouldn't it be easier just to change the example glyphs for U+1D132 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE SHARP and U+1D133 MUSICAL SYMBOL QUARTER TONE FLAT? The ones currently in the charts do

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

It would be worth to bring the collection of music symbols up to a more comprehensive set in one go, rather than to do it piecemeal. A./ On 3/29/2015 3:07 PM, Werner LEMBERG wrote: That’s quite some variety. There are also the three-quarter flat and sharp in Western music to consider. I’ll

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

On 30 Mar 2015, at 00:49, Asmus Freytag (t) asmus-...@ix.netcom.com wrote: It would be worth to bring the collection of music symbols up to a more comprehensive set in one go, rather than to do it piecemeal. Yup. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

On 03/29/2015 06:51 PM, Michael Everson wrote: On 30 Mar 2015, at 00:49, Asmus Freytag (t) asmus-...@ix.netcom.com wrote: It would be worth to bring the collection of music symbols up to a more comprehensive set in one go, rather than to do it piecemeal. Yup. Just read through (most of)

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

On 30 Mar 2015, at 00:07, Werner LEMBERG w...@gnu.org wrote: You should check the Standard Music Font Layout (SmuFL) for details; it also has a freely available font that covers it. http://www.smufl.org The recent version of the specification can be found at

Re: preliminary proposal: New Unicode characters for Arabic music half-flat and half-sharp

On 29 Mar 2015, at 22:02, Garth Wallace gwa...@gmail.com wrote: The most common symbol for the quarter tone flat, from what I've gathered, is a reversed flat sign. Some composers use the flat with stroke. One potential complication: AIUI the Arel-Ezgi-Uzdilek system for notating Turkish