Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
On 2012-08-10 20:23, Akira Shirakawa wrote: Hello group, Uh-oh: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=695cpage=1#comment-299596 Andrea Rossi August 11th, 2012 at 3:35 AM INFORMATION: AFTER THE LEAKAGE MADE BY AN INSIDER WITH THE THE NICKNAME “CURES” REGARDING THE TESTS COMPLETED ON JULY 16TH, WHICH HAD TO REMAIN UNDER NDA, I HAVE TO INFORM THAT: THE TEST MADE ON JULY 16TH WILL BE REPEATED OFFICIALLY WITHIN THE HALF OF OCTOBER 2012 BY THE UNIVERSITY OF BOLOGNA AND THE RESULTS WILL BE PUBLISHED BY THE SAME UNIVERSITY. ANDREA ROSSI What puzzles me is, if his identity and the information he gave (used to?) had to remain strictly confidential (I don't think it was his case though), I don't think it's a good idea to disclose his nickname. Or maybe Rossi's goal is instead to put pressure (to test their loyalty to NDA, etc) by exposure on both Cures and the University of Bologna? But maybe I should just stop thinking, stand back and enjoy the show. This is clearly information intended to be made public. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
I'll top-post this reply to make it easier to read: What I meant is that the device does not look at all convincing, this release could be Rossi's way of getting some early feedback on the types of objection that critics are likely to have when he unveils it for his next set of demonstrations, so I am perhaps doing him that small service. :) Hydrides release hydrogen at higher and higher pressures as the temperature increases, increasing temperature from 500°C to 1200°C could increase pressure by an order of magnitude. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Metal_hydride_hydrogen.storage.graph.gif http://www.rebresearch.com/sorbers.html pressure would be increasing massively as your temperature increased - a very dangerous situation for a reactor that is rapidly losing strength. And this would be quite scary in terms of the lack of control over the reaction that it would give (depending on what the influence of pressure is upon the reaction). He apparently has no way of measuring or releasing pressure - again very dangerous, and he would be lucky not to have a dangerous accident if he was really using such a system. Even using only a small amount of hydride (not running at pressure equilibrium) you would then have a pretty dangerous situation with pressure increasing as metal strength decreased. at 1200°C all superalloys are extremely weak. And the rate of hydrogen leakage would also increase massively at such high temperatures - you would need some way to compensate for that leakage. And then there is the added problem of how to ensure that the source of your heat energy is not leaking and reacting hydrogen (they store a lot of energy). It makes no difference what the temperature is under the skin - like the earth's core is thousands of degrees, but the surface is only about 280K on average, and it is the surface that radiates (or convects) away the heat. Though the hole you point to does look to be more like 700-800°C it is only a tiny area, and will be radiating very little energy. Almost the whole surface is barely starting to have a hint of red - so the temperature looks to be under 500°C. His stories about not being able to get close because it was too hot sounds like rubbish, you can easily put your hands in front of a bar heater or radiant gas heater operating at the power levels he is claiming, and 13kW on the surface of a 1.2m radius sphere is only about the same heat flux as the sun has on a cloudless day. His statement about heat being radiated by inner walls sounds like he doesn't understand basic radiative physics, as all that energy must leave through the small holes at the end, those holes are the only area that count (in terms of the heat energy from the inner tube). On 11 August 2012 03:52, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote: A technical analysis at last! On 2012-08-11 04:05, Robert Lynn wrote: Looks like Rossi has invented a tube furnace,or bought one and coated it in a refractory. Yep, a very crude device. Makes you wonder about others', or maybe the opposite depending on your point of view. Not a very convincing picture. No visible connections for gas or other fluids, no temperature sensors, just a couple of electrical supplies. Typically shoddy Rossi work, and again I ask myself is this deliberate to create more uncertainty, or simply lazy? This was posted by a *very* reliable inside source (probably one of Rossi's technical advisors - he has direct, first hand access to his devices, reports having disassembled them and performed measurements personally, including those of this high temperature E-Cat core) who never deliberately gave misinformation to his public. Although there's still the chance this could have happened, I think it's quite small. For what it's worth, Daniele Passerini confirms too the authenticity of this photo, having already seen similar ones privately some time ago. But you might probably not consider him a reliable source. I thought it was a known fact that Rossi now uses hydrides instead of Hydrogen gas. Maybe my impression was wrong? As for other [cooling] fluids, this is a bare reactor. Do you remember the first public Defkalion GT testing protocol? They were supposed to make the invited scientists test stripped down reactors, with no cooling other than optionally blown air. Same deal here, except there was probably no cooling performed when this photo was taken. Temperatures, as the description reports, in this case are measured through laser thermometers and a thermal camera. So the visible electrical connections are all is needed to make this work. Again, it's a very crude device. But if it's just supposed to make a lot of uncontrolled heat, it could be more than enough for the job. Also unclear how this heat is being radiated away when there is only a small hole for the heat to leave through, and from the colour it doesn't look like it is over 1000°C (though
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
On 2012-08-10 20:46, Peter Gluck wrote: dear Akira can you send me the original Italian text? thanks! Since some people are putting the correctness of my translation into question, I'm copy/pasting below the original text in Italian so that everyone can verify for themselves: Si tratta di due cilindri di acciaio coassiali. Lo spazio interno fra i due cilindri contiene la resistenza di riscaldo e la camera di reazione con il materiale attivo. Le basi sono sigillate con mastice da altoforno della Saratoga. Non serve la sigillatura in pressione. Il tutto verniciato di vernice nera per aumentare l'emissività e in grado di reggere 1200 °C Questa è una fase della misura. Al momento della foto, la temperatura media della superficie esterna era di 801 °C con picco locale di 873 °C. Temperatura superficie interna da 1100 °C a oltre 1200 °C. Parallelo di 2 resistenze di riscaldo (4 cavi che vedete). Valore del parallelo 6 Ohm. Tensione di alimentazione in alternata (50 Hz) di 147 Volt. Corrente assorbita 24,25 Ampere. Potenza assorbita 3,56 kW. Potenza irradiata dalle due pareti interna ed esterna considerate uguali per un totale di 13,39 kW al lordo della temperatura ambiente media di 35 °C Parete interna al calor bianco inavvicinabile sotto il metro per il soffio di aria bollente. Parete esterna misurata da termocamera con precisione 2% del valore misurato. Parete interna misurata con termometro a laser da 1,2 metri di distanza da manina traballante desiderosa di conservare la pelle attaccata. Valori conservativi e per difetto (molto) causa asportazione calore moto convettivo stimato in almeno 8% su parete esterna e coseno irradiazione basso per parete interna causa alto angolo di irradiazione verso termometro a laser (puntamento quasi in asse con il cilindro interno) Reazione stabile senza grilli per la testa. Praticamente noiosa. E solo una fase della misura Il COP sale quando si oltrepassano 1000 °C sulla parete esterna. Il consumo è quello di una reazione di fusione cioè quasi nullo. Una stima esatta richiede di accendere il tutto e poi fare una lunghissima vacanza prima di verficare il consumo. Per completezza d’informazione è bene sapere che i dati sono preliminari ed è bene precisare che la misura della temperatura del cilindro interno dovrà essere ripetuta con mezzi meno traballanti di un termometro a laser in modo da affinare i risultati trattandosi di una misura delicata perché la superficie interna si trova a contatto con l’aria surriscaldata da lei stessa. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
Here is the EXIF metadata from the jpeg image. There is good information except geolocalization. mic Il 11 agosto 2012 15:39, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com ha scritto: On 2012-08-10 20:46, Peter Gluck wrote: dear Akira can you send me the original Italian text? thanks! Since some people are putting the correctness of my translation into question, I'm copy/pasting below the original text in Italian so that everyone can verify for themselves: Si tratta di due cilindri di acciaio coassiali. Lo spazio interno fra i due cilindri contiene la resistenza di riscaldo e la camera di reazione con il materiale attivo. Le basi sono sigillate con mastice da altoforno della Saratoga. Non serve la sigillatura in pressione. Il tutto verniciato di vernice nera per aumentare l'emissività e in grado di reggere 1200 °C Questa è una fase della misura. Al momento della foto, la temperatura media della superficie esterna era di 801 °C con picco locale di 873 °C. Temperatura superficie interna da 1100 °C a oltre 1200 °C. Parallelo di 2 resistenze di riscaldo (4 cavi che vedete). Valore del parallelo 6 Ohm. Tensione di alimentazione in alternata (50 Hz) di 147 Volt. Corrente assorbita 24,25 Ampere. Potenza assorbita 3,56 kW. Potenza irradiata dalle due pareti interna ed esterna considerate uguali per un totale di 13,39 kW al lordo della temperatura ambiente media di 35 °C Parete interna al calor bianco inavvicinabile sotto il metro per il soffio di aria bollente. Parete esterna misurata da termocamera con precisione 2% del valore misurato. Parete interna misurata con termometro a laser da 1,2 metri di distanza da manina traballante desiderosa di conservare la pelle attaccata. Valori conservativi e per difetto (molto) causa asportazione calore moto convettivo stimato in almeno 8% su parete esterna e coseno irradiazione basso per parete interna causa alto angolo di irradiazione verso termometro a laser (puntamento quasi in asse con il cilindro interno) Reazione stabile senza grilli per la testa. Praticamente noiosa. E solo una fase della misura Il COP sale quando si oltrepassano 1000 °C sulla parete esterna. Il consumo è quello di una reazione di fusione cioè quasi nullo. Una stima esatta richiede di accendere il tutto e poi fare una lunghissima vacanza prima di verficare il consumo. Per completezza d’informazione è bene sapere che i dati sono preliminari ed è bene precisare che la misura della temperatura del cilindro interno dovrà essere ripetuta con mezzi meno traballanti di un termometro a laser in modo da affinare i risultati trattandosi di una misura delicata perché la superficie interna si trova a contatto con l’aria surriscaldata da lei stessa. Cheers, S.A. data.exif Description: Binary data
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
On 2012-08-11 16:38, Michele Comitini wrote: [...] There is good information except geolocalization. No need for that. The photo clearly shows that it was taken in Rossi's lab (?) near Bologna: http://i.imgur.com/Ul2C7.jpg Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
On Aug 11, 2012, at 3:06, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: Though the hole you point to does look to be more like 700-800°C it is only a tiny area, and will be radiating very little energy. Almost the whole surface is barely starting to have a hint of red - so the temperature looks to be under 500°C. Your points about safety are interesting. About the temperature, I was wondering at what point the picture was taken. Was it taken when the device was just starting up, or was it taken after contued operation? Eric
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 5:38 AM, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote: But maybe I should just stop thinking, stand back and enjoy the show. This is clearly information intended to be made public. Rossi is just trying to steal some of the spotlight from PDGTG. Jealous, he is. T
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
A facebook user Renzo Barbieri makes a good case that the source of Rossi's leaked picture is none other than Domenico Fioravanti, the engineer who did the Oct 1MW testing. https://www.facebook.com/groups/ECat.LENR/ In the first JONP Rossi calls Cures Prof. Fioravanti. In another, Cures signs his name Domenico. - Andrea Rossi July 24th, 2011 at 4:59 AMhttp://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=501cpage=5#comment-56084 Dear CURES (Prof. Fioravanti): Very good suggestions, thank you very, very much. Warm Regards, A.R. - Cures September 15th, 2011 at 9:19 AMhttp://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=510cpage=10#comment-72877 Caro Andrea non riesco a spedirti posta all’indirizzo i...@leonardo1996.com Mi viene respinta con la dicitura -impossibile inviare il messaggio- La mia posta sembra funzioni. Hai problemi con la tua? Domenico This smells like an authorized leak, since he signed the picture with his Cures alias that was known to Rossi... Worse, they appear to be old acquaintances.. which makes the claim of independent verification by an engineer working for a customer seem... unfortunately bogus. *Curiouser and curiouser! *- Brad On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote: Hello group, Have a look at the following photo and the attached technical information. These come from a quite reliable inside source who was allowed to leak some data and information about Rossi's 1200 °C test E-Cat core currently under testing. This was originally in Italian language, any error in translation is my fault. * * * http://i.imgur.com/4XlY2.jpg [The reactor] is composed of two coaxial steel cylinders. The internal space between the two cylinders contains an electrical heating resistance and the reaction chamber with the active material. The cylinder bases are sealed with heat resistant sealant for blast furnace use. Pressure sealing is not needed. The whole has been painted in black to increase emissivity and can withstand 1200 °C. The photo shows a phase of the measurements At the time of this photo, the average outer surface temperature was 801 °C, with local hot spots of 873 °C. The inner surface temperature ranged from 1100 °C to over 1200 °C. Two electrical heating resistances in parallel (the 4 visible cables). Value of the resistances in parallel: 6 Ohm. AC (50 Hz) input voltage of 147 Volts. Current consumption 24.25 Ampere. Power consumption 3.56 kW. Heat power irradiated by both inner and outer walls, assumed equal for a total of 13.39 kW, including the average ambient temperature of 35 °C. Inner wall of bright white color, unapproachable under 1 meter of distance because of hot air flow. Outer wall measured by thermal camera with 2% measurement precision. Inner wall measurement by laser thermometer from a 1.2 meter distance by the shaky hand of a person who didn't want to get cooked. Conservative, rounded down values due to heat taken off by convective flow estimated to be at least 8% on the outer wall and low irradiation cosine for the inner wall due to high irradiation angle toward laser thermometer (pointing almost in axis with the inner cylinder). Stable reaction, without strange happenings. Virtually boring. COP raises when 1000 °C are exceeded on the outer wall. [Fuel] consumption is that of a [nuclear] fusion reaction, that is, almost nonexistent. A proper estimate would require to turn the thing on and then taking a very long vacation before verifying the actual consumption. For the sake of completeness, it should be noted that data are preliminary and that inner cylinder measurements will have to be remade with less shaky methods than a laser thermometer, in order to improve results as it's a delicate measurement, since the inner surface is in contact with the air heated by the surface itself. * * * Cheers, S.A.
[Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
Hello group, Have a look at the following photo and the attached technical information. These come from a quite reliable inside source who was allowed to leak some data and information about Rossi's 1200 °C test E-Cat core currently under testing. This was originally in Italian language, any error in translation is my fault. * * * http://i.imgur.com/4XlY2.jpg [The reactor] is composed of two coaxial steel cylinders. The internal space between the two cylinders contains an electrical heating resistance and the reaction chamber with the active material. The cylinder bases are sealed with heat resistant sealant for blast furnace use. Pressure sealing is not needed. The whole has been painted in black to increase emissivity and can withstand 1200 °C. The photo shows a phase of the measurements At the time of this photo, the average outer surface temperature was 801 °C, with local hot spots of 873 °C. The inner surface temperature ranged from 1100 °C to over 1200 °C. Two electrical heating resistances in parallel (the 4 visible cables). Value of the resistances in parallel: 6 Ohm. AC (50 Hz) input voltage of 147 Volts. Current consumption 24.25 Ampere. Power consumption 3.56 kW. Heat power irradiated by both inner and outer walls, assumed equal for a total of 13.39 kW, including the average ambient temperature of 35 °C. Inner wall of bright white color, unapproachable under 1 meter of distance because of hot air flow. Outer wall measured by thermal camera with 2% measurement precision. Inner wall measurement by laser thermometer from a 1.2 meter distance by the shaky hand of a person who didn't want to get cooked. Conservative, rounded down values due to heat taken off by convective flow estimated to be at least 8% on the outer wall and low irradiation cosine for the inner wall due to high irradiation angle toward laser thermometer (pointing almost in axis with the inner cylinder). Stable reaction, without strange happenings. Virtually boring. COP raises when 1000 °C are exceeded on the outer wall. [Fuel] consumption is that of a [nuclear] fusion reaction, that is, almost nonexistent. A proper estimate would require to turn the thing on and then taking a very long vacation before verifying the actual consumption. For the sake of completeness, it should be noted that data are preliminary and that inner cylinder measurements will have to be remade with less shaky methods than a laser thermometer, in order to improve results as it's a delicate measurement, since the inner surface is in contact with the air heated by the surface itself. * * * Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
dear Akira can you send me the original Italian text? thanks! Peter On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:23 PM, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.comwrote: Hello group, Have a look at the following photo and the attached technical information. These come from a quite reliable inside source who was allowed to leak some data and information about Rossi's 1200 °C test E-Cat core currently under testing. This was originally in Italian language, any error in translation is my fault. * * * http://i.imgur.com/4XlY2.jpg [The reactor] is composed of two coaxial steel cylinders. The internal space between the two cylinders contains an electrical heating resistance and the reaction chamber with the active material. The cylinder bases are sealed with heat resistant sealant for blast furnace use. Pressure sealing is not needed. The whole has been painted in black to increase emissivity and can withstand 1200 °C. The photo shows a phase of the measurements At the time of this photo, the average outer surface temperature was 801 °C, with local hot spots of 873 °C. The inner surface temperature ranged from 1100 °C to over 1200 °C. Two electrical heating resistances in parallel (the 4 visible cables). Value of the resistances in parallel: 6 Ohm. AC (50 Hz) input voltage of 147 Volts. Current consumption 24.25 Ampere. Power consumption 3.56 kW. Heat power irradiated by both inner and outer walls, assumed equal for a total of 13.39 kW, including the average ambient temperature of 35 °C. Inner wall of bright white color, unapproachable under 1 meter of distance because of hot air flow. Outer wall measured by thermal camera with 2% measurement precision. Inner wall measurement by laser thermometer from a 1.2 meter distance by the shaky hand of a person who didn't want to get cooked. Conservative, rounded down values due to heat taken off by convective flow estimated to be at least 8% on the outer wall and low irradiation cosine for the inner wall due to high irradiation angle toward laser thermometer (pointing almost in axis with the inner cylinder). Stable reaction, without strange happenings. Virtually boring. COP raises when 1000 °C are exceeded on the outer wall. [Fuel] consumption is that of a [nuclear] fusion reaction, that is, almost nonexistent. A proper estimate would require to turn the thing on and then taking a very long vacation before verifying the actual consumption. For the sake of completeness, it should be noted that data are preliminary and that inner cylinder measurements will have to be remade with less shaky methods than a laser thermometer, in order to improve results as it's a delicate measurement, since the inner surface is in contact with the air heated by the surface itself. * * * Cheers, S.A. -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
On 2012-08-10 20:46, Peter Gluck wrote: dear Akira can you send me the original Italian text? thanks! Sent to your email address. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
Grazie! On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:48 PM, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.comwrote: On 2012-08-10 20:46, Peter Gluck wrote: dear Akira can you send me the original Italian text? thanks! Sent to your email address. Cheers, S.A. -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
RE: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
Peter, Please double check Akira's translation to verify correctness... It's obviously VERY hot (north of 800C according to the text); can those small-guage wires sustain that kind of heat all by themselves? -Mark -Original Message- From: Akira Shirakawa [mailto:shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 11:48 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor On 2012-08-10 20:46, Peter Gluck wrote: dear Akira can you send me the original Italian text? thanks! Sent to your email address. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
Akira translates perfectly always, I just wanted to see some terms. The context of this story is interesting. Plus the material problems. Peter On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 10:24 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.netwrote: Peter, Please double check Akira's translation to verify correctness... It's obviously VERY hot (north of 800C according to the text); can those small-guage wires sustain that kind of heat all by themselves? -Mark -Original Message- From: Akira Shirakawa [mailto:shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 11:48 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor On 2012-08-10 20:46, Peter Gluck wrote: dear Akira can you send me the original Italian text? thanks! Sent to your email address. Cheers, S.A. -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
I myself are starting to see a pattern here. There are again two wire conducting more than enough electricity to the device. Some intended measurement error here and some other there, and pretty soon we are talking real heat. They all follow the same pattern that can easily hide a fraud inside. It seems that the input electric wires are more important than the actual quantum reactor. I would say that there is zero probability that Rossi has anything that is even nearing the commercial viability. And if he has, then it would make Rossi the greatest criminal in the history of Earth because he has delayed the technology so long that it has already caused the death of hundreds of millions people due to not enabling this to enter the market properly. I guess that Rossi is already making very good money, because he has time to engineer these kinds of unpractical electric heaters. –Jouni On 10 August 2012 22:28, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: The context of this story is interesting. Plus the material problems. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
The SCAM that is based on a real system is more effective than one that is not. A working prototype is a life long meal ticket. If the technology is released, the easy money comes to an end. The inventor is moved out of the picture by the big money interests. One must not confuse the SCAM with the system, these two things must be considered separately with one not diminishing the other. Cheers: Axil On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.comwrote: I myself are starting to see a pattern here. There are again two wire conducting more than enough electricity to the device. Some intended measurement error here and some other there, and pretty soon we are talking real heat. They all follow the same pattern that can easily hide a fraud inside. It seems that the input electric wires are more important than the actual quantum reactor. I would say that there is zero probability that Rossi has anything that is even nearing the commercial viability. And if he has, then it would make Rossi the greatest criminal in the history of Earth because he has delayed the technology so long that it has already caused the death of hundreds of millions people due to not enabling this to enter the market properly. I guess that Rossi is already making very good money, because he has time to engineer these kinds of unpractical electric heaters. –Jouni On 10 August 2012 22:28, Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote: The context of this story is interesting. Plus the material problems. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 2:23 PM, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote: Hello group, Have a look at the following photo and the attached technical information. http://www.e-catworld.com/2012/08/rossi-now-able-to-use-gas-not-electric-to-drive-e-cat/ T
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
Thanks for the translation, Akira... For those interested, I believe the source is here: http://www.cobraf.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=5747reply_id=123482996#123482996 Chrome seems to be the best browser for automatic translation. - Brad
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
Talk about hyperkinetic hyperbolie!! Rossi is a world class criminal! I suppose all those who have ever associated with him even in witnessing his tests (criminal activities) should be put on trial with him. I must admit to drifting in the direction of the increasingly less convinced mass. I will give him to the end of the year to present something substantial but I will never find myself in the class of those who resort to such over the top pronouncments. Jouni Valkonen And if he has, then it would make Rossi the greatest criminal in the history of Earth because he has delayed the technology so long that it has already caused the death of hundreds of millions people due to not enabling this to enter the market properly.
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
It is hard to beleive. Cheers: Axil On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Kelley Trezise ktrez2...@ssvecnet.comwrote: ** Talk about hyperkinetic hyperbolie!! Rossi is a world class criminal! I suppose all those who have ever associated with him even in witnessing his tests (criminal activities) should be put on trial with him. I must admit to drifting in the direction of the increasingly less convinced mass. I will give him to the end of the year to present something substantial but I will never find myself in the class of those who resort to such over the top pronouncments. Jouni Valkonen jounivalko...@gmail.com And if he has, then it would make Rossi the greatest criminal in the history of Earth because he has delayed the technology so long that it has already caused the death of hundreds of millions people due to not enabling this to enter the market properly.
RE: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
Kelley/Jouni: You guys are missing the big picture… what Rossi does now is immaterial. What he *did* is open the floodgates, and because of that, there are now enough high-level people aware of what the ENTIRE LENR/CF COMMUNITY has accomplished – namely, irrefutable proof that the excess heat is REAL, repeatability, evidence of energetic particles – i.e., some new physics that can likely be exploited for cheap clean energy. That’s what’s important; that’s the BIG picture. Large companies are also aware, and investment $ is beginning to flow… who the heck cares what Rossi does or does not do from here on? -Mark From: Kelley Trezise [mailto:ktrez2...@ssvecnet.com] Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:13 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor Talk about hyperkinetic hyperbolie!! Rossi is a world class criminal! I suppose all those who have ever associated with him even in witnessing his tests (criminal activities) should be put on trial with him. I must admit to drifting in the direction of the increasingly less convinced mass. I will give him to the end of the year to present something substantial but I will never find myself in the class of those who resort to such over the top pronouncments. Jouni Valkonen mailto:jounivalko...@gmail.com And if he has, then it would make Rossi the greatest criminal in the history of Earth because he has delayed the technology so long that it has already caused the death of hundreds of millions people due to not enabling this to enter the market properly.
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
Rossi is NOT a criminal. He is an absolute hero for developing the world's first practical cold fusion technology. This technology is developing much faster than if he had went through official channels such as the cult-like peer review system. If he had wasted his time writing hundreds of papers, submitting them for peer review, arguing with reviewers, attending each and every conference, preparing countless power point presentations, and so fourth he would not have developed the hot cat. He would still be working on his low temperature systems. Instead, he focused on developing the technology rapidly so it could become as useful as possible. Anyone who says he is a criminal is, at best, making a huge mistake. They are clueless about how the mainstream suppresses radical technologies. Heck, we even have one member on this list who thinks that the government should seize all of Rossi's technology, and lock it away in a secret research program for five years. From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:25 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor It is hard to beleive. Cheers: Axil On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Kelley Trezise ktrez2...@ssvecnet.com wrote: Talk about hyperkinetic hyperbolie!! Rossi is a world class criminal! I suppose all those who have ever associated with him even in witnessing his tests (criminal activities) should be put on trial with him. I must admit to drifting in the direction of the increasingly less convinced mass. I will give him to the end of the year to present something substantial but I will never find myself in the class of those who resort to such over the top pronouncments. Jouni Valkonen And if he has, then it would make Rossi the greatest criminal in the history of Earth because he has delayed the technology so long that it has already caused the death of hundreds of millions people due to not enabling this to enter the market properly.
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
What he did was do more than open the floodgates. He has developed a kilowatt class system while almost everyone else could only produce tens of watts. Now, he has a system that can also produce 1,000C degree temperatures that can allow for efficient conversion to electricity. His technology did not open the flood gates, it is the flood! From: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:48 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor Kelley/Jouni: You guys are missing the big picture… what Rossi does now is immaterial. What he *did* is open the floodgates, and because of that, there are now enough high-level people aware of what the ENTIRE LENR/CF COMMUNITY has accomplished – namely, irrefutable proof that the excess heat is REAL, repeatability, evidence of energetic particles – i.e., some new physics that can likely be exploited for cheap clean energy. That’s what’s important; that’s the BIG picture. Large companies are also aware, and investment $ is beginning to flow… who the heck cares what Rossi does or does not do from here on? -Mark From:Kelley Trezise [mailto:ktrez2...@ssvecnet.com] Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:13 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor Talk about hyperkinetic hyperbolie!! Rossi is a world class criminal! I suppose all those who have ever associated with him even in witnessing his tests (criminal activities) should be put on trial with him. I must admit to drifting in the direction of the increasingly less convinced mass. I will give him to the end of the year to present something substantial but I will never find myself in the class of those who resort to such over the top pronouncments. Jouni Valkonen And if he has, then it would make Rossi the greatest criminal in the history of Earth because he has delayed the technology so long that it has already caused the death of hundreds of millions people due to not enabling this to enter the market properly.
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
Rossi should not be put on trial for anything. The establishment that has suppressed cold fusion for the past twenty or so years should be put on trial! The way he ignored the peer review system is what allowed this technology to be rapidly developed. If he had played the game of the official scientific community (going to conferences, arguing with peer reviewers, spending all of his time writing letters to journals, and spending months to review the data from a single test) the hot cat would not even exist. By saying F-U to the cult like aspects of mainstream science, he has developed his technology in record time. From: Kelley Trezise ktrez2...@ssvecnet.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor Talk about hyperkinetic hyperbolie!! Rossi is a world class criminal! I suppose all those who have ever associated with him even in witnessing his tests (criminal activities) should be put on trial with him. I must admit to drifting in the direction of the increasingly less convinced mass. I will give him to the end of the year to present something substantial but I will never find myself in the class of those who resort to such over the top pronouncments. Jouni Valkonen And if he has, then it would make Rossi the greatest criminal in the history of Earth because he has delayed the technology so long that it has already caused the death of hundreds of millions people due to not enabling this to enter the market properly.
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
On 11 August 2012 01:48, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: You guys are missing the big picture… what Rossi does now is immaterial. What he **did** is open the floodgates, and because of that, there are now enough high-level people aware of what the ENTIRE LENR/CF COMMUNITY has accomplished – namely, irrefutable proof that the excess heat is REAL, repeatability, evidence of energetic particles – i.e., some new physics that can likely be exploited for cheap clean energy. That’s what’s important; that’s the BIG picture. Large companies are also aware, and investment $ is beginning to flow… who the heck cares what Rossi does or does not do from here on? That is true. Rossi has brought huge amounts of popularity for the cold fusion (I still do not believe that there is solid evidence for transmutations, expect helium production!), so his role has been irreplaceable, even if he did it for his own hobby and gathered decent money from his surroundings. I would say that it is because of Rossi, Brillouin Energy and BLP have managed to raise some extra money for their quest for clean energy, even if they will not find anything worthy for publishing. This argument against Rossi is however extremely strong, because he has already done 14 trillion dollar damage to the world economy if he is hiding commercially viable product. These are just too big money that anyone could have moral sense to hide them from public. Therefore there is no more for Rossi, what he has already presented. –Jouni
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
Looks like Rossi has invented a tube furnace,or bought one and coated it in a refractory. Not a very convincing picture. No visible connections for gas or other fluids, no temperature sensors, just a couple of electrical supplies. Typically shoddy Rossi work, and again I ask myself is this deliberate to create more uncertainty, or simply lazy? Also unclear how this heat is being radiated away when there is only a small hole for the heat to leave through, and from the colour it doesn't look like it is over 1000°C (though photos can be deceptive the rest of the environment around the picture looks quite normal). From colour the outer surface is quite obviously relatively cool, not 800°C - looks more like 500°C. (I used to work with engine exhausts that ran in 500-1000°C range, so have some experience of heat-colour, eg check out what looks like a 950°C max exhaust: http://www.strangecosmos.com/content/item/177605.html) Doing a very crude estimate: holes in ends 40mm diameter (assuming bolts are 14mm), area .0012m² and radiating about 150kW/m² (1000°C black body to 30°C environment, is only radiating about 150W from each end. While outer surface at 500°C (radiating 20kW/m²) and assuming 140mm diameter and 300mm long or about 0.13m² total, would give about 2.6kW of radiated heat. So we are in the right ball park if the input energy was 3.5kW as stated. There are not many metals that will withstand operating at such high temperatures, and not safely when exposed to hydrogen at pressure. Not pressure sealing sounds like rubbish, refractory sealants wont seal metals at high temp due to differential thermal expansion. The mention of gas heating makes me very suspicious that this will be his next method for hiding or confusing the results that he produces in yet another unconvincing demo. Compared and contrasted to Celani and Defkalion's recent info, Rossi needs to lift his game a lot if he want to keep playing, but he is doing nothing to improve his believability. Rossi is looking more and more dodgy in my book, and this is even giving him the benefit of the doubt for his many lies in the last year (selling 1MW reactor etc). I would be quite happy if he disappeared never to be seen again as without a proper demo he is doing nothing but harm to the field. It would be seriously disappointing if Defkalion turned out to be scammers too - but the detail in their latest releases seems pretty convincing. On 10 August 2012 19:23, Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com wrote: Hello group, Have a look at the following photo and the attached technical information. These come from a quite reliable inside source who was allowed to leak some data and information about Rossi's 1200 °C test E-Cat core currently under testing. This was originally in Italian language, any error in translation is my fault. * * * http://i.imgur.com/4XlY2.jpg [The reactor] is composed of two coaxial steel cylinders. The internal space between the two cylinders contains an electrical heating resistance and the reaction chamber with the active material. The cylinder bases are sealed with heat resistant sealant for blast furnace use. Pressure sealing is not needed. The whole has been painted in black to increase emissivity and can withstand 1200 °C. The photo shows a phase of the measurements At the time of this photo, the average outer surface temperature was 801 °C, with local hot spots of 873 °C. The inner surface temperature ranged from 1100 °C to over 1200 °C. Two electrical heating resistances in parallel (the 4 visible cables). Value of the resistances in parallel: 6 Ohm. AC (50 Hz) input voltage of 147 Volts. Current consumption 24.25 Ampere. Power consumption 3.56 kW. Heat power irradiated by both inner and outer walls, assumed equal for a total of 13.39 kW, including the average ambient temperature of 35 °C. Inner wall of bright white color, unapproachable under 1 meter of distance because of hot air flow. Outer wall measured by thermal camera with 2% measurement precision. Inner wall measurement by laser thermometer from a 1.2 meter distance by the shaky hand of a person who didn't want to get cooked. Conservative, rounded down values due to heat taken off by convective flow estimated to be at least 8% on the outer wall and low irradiation cosine for the inner wall due to high irradiation angle toward laser thermometer (pointing almost in axis with the inner cylinder). Stable reaction, without strange happenings. Virtually boring. COP raises when 1000 °C are exceeded on the outer wall. [Fuel] consumption is that of a [nuclear] fusion reaction, that is, almost nonexistent. A proper estimate would require to turn the thing on and then taking a very long vacation before verifying the actual consumption. For the sake of completeness, it should be noted that data are preliminary and that inner cylinder measurements will have to be remade with less shaky methods than a laser
Re: [Vo]:Detailed inside information about Rossi's 1000C test reactor
A technical analysis at last! On 2012-08-11 04:05, Robert Lynn wrote: Looks like Rossi has invented a tube furnace,or bought one and coated it in a refractory. Yep, a very crude device. Makes you wonder about others', or maybe the opposite depending on your point of view. Not a very convincing picture. No visible connections for gas or other fluids, no temperature sensors, just a couple of electrical supplies. Typically shoddy Rossi work, and again I ask myself is this deliberate to create more uncertainty, or simply lazy? This was posted by a *very* reliable inside source (probably one of Rossi's technical advisors - he has direct, first hand access to his devices, reports having disassembled them and performed measurements personally, including those of this high temperature E-Cat core) who never deliberately gave misinformation to his public. Although there's still the chance this could have happened, I think it's quite small. For what it's worth, Daniele Passerini confirms too the authenticity of this photo, having already seen similar ones privately some time ago. But you might probably not consider him a reliable source. I thought it was a known fact that Rossi now uses hydrides instead of Hydrogen gas. Maybe my impression was wrong? As for other [cooling] fluids, this is a bare reactor. Do you remember the first public Defkalion GT testing protocol? They were supposed to make the invited scientists test stripped down reactors, with no cooling other than optionally blown air. Same deal here, except there was probably no cooling performed when this photo was taken. Temperatures, as the description reports, in this case are measured through laser thermometers and a thermal camera. So the visible electrical connections are all is needed to make this work. Again, it's a very crude device. But if it's just supposed to make a lot of uncontrolled heat, it could be more than enough for the job. Also unclear how this heat is being radiated away when there is only a small hole for the heat to leave through, and from the colour it doesn't look like it is over 1000°C (though photos can be deceptive the rest of the environment around the picture looks quite normal). From colour the outer surface is quite obviously relatively cool, not 800°C - looks more like 500°C. (I used to work with engine exhausts that ran in 500-1000°C range, so have some experience of heat-colour, eg check out what looks like a 950°C max exhaust: http://www.strangecosmos.com/content/item/177605.html) If you check this image, you can see that an arrow points to an area where the clay-like material is in part missing, and the underlying surface from the outer cylinder is literally red hot. This might be of help in assessing the outer surface temperature: http://i.imgur.com/5IOPM.jpg [...] There are not many metals that will withstand operating at such high temperatures, and not safely when exposed to hydrogen at pressure. Not pressure sealing sounds like rubbish, refractory sealants wont seal metals at high temp due to differential thermal expansion. I'm not sure there's hydrogen at pressure anymore as I previously mentioned. If Rossi is now using hydrides in the active material, there might be no need anymore for pressure sealing or high pressure resistance for the reactor walls (very important since working temperatures are quite high). But I'm not an expert in this area so I shouldn't really write much about it. The mention of gas heating makes me very suspicious that this will be his next method for hiding or confusing the results that he produces in yet another unconvincing demo. Rossi is basically saying that excess heat in his new E-Cat can be triggered by heat, something which Francesco Celani already experienced with his treated Ni-Cu-Mn wires, and documented in his latest report: http://www.22passi.it/downloads/PresICCF17_NewA3A.pdf More in detail, he mentions that the reaction, apart some temperature threshold, has a positive feedback with increasing temperature. His demonstrative reactor is probably more similar to Rossi's E-Cat than it would seem. Cheers, S.A.
