Re: [Vo]:McKubre clarifies his view of the Celani demonstration
On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 12:56 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I wish we had more guys looking over these Papp engines to determine whether or not they are real. The concept is interesting, and of course there are problems that need resolution before quantity production could be considered. I have been thinking of the behavior of a crossed field device of this nature and think there may be something there, but it is quite complex. Review the operation of magnetrons if you want to see some similar characteristics. I am still attempting to calculate the electromagnetic power pulse applied to the piston, since it apparently does not operate as a heat engine. At them moment it is not clear how the nobel gas ion mixture supplies the reaction momentum to the piston motion. One day someone will figue this puppy out. Pure speculation: The gas momentarily behaves like a liquid. Harry
Re: [Vo]:McKubre clarifies his view of the Celani demonstration
Yep, it is speculation at this point. Do you have any idea as to how the liquid behavior would generate the piston thrust? We need any new ideas out there as we attempt to understand this device. I am approaching the device from an unusual electric motor design. We know that charged ions are in motion which will generate a magnetic field. I also see evidence that the electrons will head toward the positive voltage electrodes while the ions will go in reverse. The axial magnetic field will cause both types of particles to rotate within the cylinder in opposite directions. I am thinking that the collisions between the neutral atoms and the circulating particles will lead to mass ionization. If LENR occurs due to the ions and other factors, it will add energy to the mix which ultimately does the external work. It is early in the understanding, but it has possibilities. I visualize that the very rapidly changing magnetic field induces currents in both the piston as well as the end cap in opposition. This process may further enhance LENR by behaving as a form of pinch for the ions between the two fields. The force that drives the piston would be supported by a reaction force applied to the end cap of the cylinder. In my way of thinking this would help explain why the ions are not pushed away from the center of the reaction region as the piston accelerates away from them. This process would by necessity require both the piston as well as the end caps to be highly conductive. The process I have outlined is very speculative and I realize that, but if the engine is to function at all and run warm, then it can not be any form of normal heat engine since the efficiency of these is rather poor. The efficiency of an electric motor is quite good and hence my push in that direction. The Papp engine might actually be a form of electric motor that uses LENR to generate linear motion efficiently. Lets hope for such a process. Dave -Original Message- From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Mon, Aug 20, 2012 11:57 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:McKubre clarifies his view of the Celani demonstration On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 12:56 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I wish we had more guys looking over these Papp engines to determine whether or not they are real. The concept is interesting, and of course there are problems that need resolution before quantity production could be considered. I have been thinking of the behavior of a crossed field device of this nature and think there may be something there, but it is quite complex. Review the operation of magnetrons if you want to see some similar characteristics. I am still attempting to calculate the electromagnetic power pulse applied to the piston, since it apparently does not operate as a heat engine. At them moment it is not clear how the nobel gas ion mixture supplies the reaction momentum to the piston motion. One day someone will figue this puppy out. Pure speculation: The gas momentarily behaves like a liquid. Harry
Re: [Vo]:McKubre clarifies his view of the Celani demonstration
At 11:27 PM 8/19/2012, Eric Walker wrote: On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax mailto:a...@lomaxdesign.coma...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: I don't think Mike is likely to make any announcement soon He said enough on the stage at TeslaTech That's too bad for us, but understandable. I listened to a shorter version of the TeslaTech video once more to better understand what McKubre was saying. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS1MsymF8hchttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS1MsymF8hc At 5:27 minutes, McKubre says that he was intrigued by the Papp engine and set up a challenge. Â The challenge, presumably to replicators, was to demonstrate that more than 10 times the electrical energy being put into the system was being produced. Â McKubre and coworkers set up the test and showed those involved what to do. Â He then explains that the challenge was successfully met, presumably by Bob Rohner. You cannot assume that. Mike hasn't said that. Later it becomes apparent that Bob Rohner's group does not have a final product yet, and I think Jones is partly correct that I have misrepresented things when I said that McKubre endorses Rohner's work. Â It is also clear, however, from McKubre's description of the (Rohner) test, from his comments on the history of the Papp engine and from his description of an interview of an eyewitness to the Feynmann accident that he believes there is probably something to the Papp engine and that it is a worthy line of exploration. Mike has made it clear that there is a mystery here. Until we have independent, open confirmation, where fraud can be ruled out (as well as error), it will remain a mystery. At TeslaTech, Bob Rohner demonstrated a popper. We were not given operational data, and shortcomings like this help maintain the mystery. At the same conference, Bob's arch-enemy, his brother John, showed a popper of his own construction, but did not demonstrate it. He's selling it. Anyone who looks into this can see that something is very fishy. But what? Mystery means we don't know. People seem to love to jump to conclusions from however things appear to them. That is either gullible or pseudoskeptical. Real skepticism rests with mystery until we know.
Re: [Vo]:McKubre clarifies his view of the Celani demonstration
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 1:14 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Yep, it is speculation at this point. Do you have any idea as to how the liquid behavior would generate the piston thrust? We need any new ideas out there as we attempt to understand this device. Consider a hydraulic piston. It works because a liquid is extremely incompressible. At the moment of the hypothetical phase transition from gas to liquid, the liquid finds itself under compression by the mass of the position, but since a liquid strongly resists any compression it pushes the piston. A plasma is often referred to as the 4th state of matter, so plasmas may have some liquid-like properties that don't occur in gases. I am approaching the device from an unusual electric motor design. We know that charged ions are in motion which will generate a magnetic field. I also see evidence that the electrons will head toward the positive voltage electrodes while the ions will go in reverse. The axial magnetic field will cause both types of particles to rotate within the cylinder in opposite directions. I am thinking that the collisions between the neutral atoms and the circulating particles will lead to mass ionization. If LENR occurs due to the ions and other factors, it will add energy to the mix which ultimately does the external work. It is early in the understanding, but it has possibilities. I visualize that the very rapidly changing magnetic field induces currents in both the piston as well as the end cap in opposition. This process may further enhance LENR by behaving as a form of pinch for the ions between the two fields. The force that drives the piston would be supported by a reaction force applied to the end cap of the cylinder. In my way of thinking this would help explain why the ions are not pushed away from the center of the reaction region as the piston accelerates away from them. This process would by necessity require both the piston as well as the end caps to be highly conductive. The process I have outlined is very speculative and I realize that, but if the engine is to function at all and run warm, then it can not be any form of normal heat engine since the efficiency of these is rather poor. The efficiency of an electric motor is quite good and hence my push in that direction. The Papp engine might actually be a form of electric motor that uses LENR to generate linear motion efficiently. Lets hope for such a process. harry
Re: [Vo]:McKubre clarifies his view of the Celani demonstration
Le Aug 20, 2012 à 3:32 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com a écrit : People seem to love to jump to conclusions from however things appear to them. That is either gullible or pseudoskeptical. Real skepticism rests with mystery until we know. Perhaps. But so far we have addressed details that are tangential to my main point: the video makes it clear that Michael McKubre sees promise in the Papp engine and implies that a related device has been tested under his watch. Eric
Re: [Vo]:McKubre clarifies his view of the Celani demonstration
I would love to hear Mike's real thoughts on the the Papp engine and whether he thinks it is an interesting /unexplained phenomenon or we are close to a commercial product. Its unfortunate that the Rohner boys can't play nice--Bob just shut down all of his brother John's YouTube videos.. Bob: http://www.rohnermachine.com/ John: http://plasmerg.com/ - Brad On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: I sent Mike a copy of the message I posted here, along with Robert Lynn's analysis. He responded: It would be fair to say that I have some concerns and am working with others to see if these can be resolved. I also think that the core of the experiment is a very clever idea and look forward to seeing more quantitative data. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:McKubre clarifies his view of the Celani demonstration
I don't think Mike is likely to make any announcement soon He said enough on the stage at TeslaTech As to the videos, John may not know that YouTube is obligated to obey a DCMA take-down notice, but that he can file a counter-claim and presumably YouTube will then restore the videos. Filing a counterclaim if you don't have the right is hazardous to your legal health! John may prefer to play the victim, and I certainly don't know who is right. John's own ravings have convinced me to not believe a word he says without verification, and some of that rubs off on Bob Rohner as well. Mutually Assured Destruction. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 19, 2012, at 12:16 PM, ecat builder ecatbuil...@gmail.com wrote: I would love to hear Mike's real thoughts on the the Papp engine and whether he thinks it is an interesting /unexplained phenomenon or we are close to a commercial product. Its unfortunate that the Rohner boys can't play nice--Bob just shut down all of his brother John's YouTube videos.. Bob: http://www.rohnermachine.com/ John: http://plasmerg.com/ - Brad On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: I sent Mike a copy of the message I posted here, along with Robert Lynn's analysis. He responded: It would be fair to say that I have some concerns and am working with others to see if these can be resolved. I also think that the core of the experiment is a very clever idea and look forward to seeing more quantitative data. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:McKubre clarifies his view of the Celani demonstration
On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: I don't think Mike is likely to make any announcement soon He said enough on the stage at TeslaTech That's too bad for us, but understandable. I listened to a shorter version of the TeslaTech video once more to better understand what McKubre was saying. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS1MsymF8hc At 5:27 minutes, McKubre says that he was intrigued by the Papp engine and set up a challenge. The challenge, presumably to replicators, was to demonstrate that more than 10 times the electrical energy being put into the system was being produced. McKubre and coworkers set up the test and showed those involved what to do. He then explains that the challenge was successfully met, presumably by Bob Rohner. Later it becomes apparent that Bob Rohner's group does not have a final product yet, and I think Jones is partly correct that I have misrepresented things when I said that McKubre endorses Rohner's work. It is also clear, however, from McKubre's description of the (Rohner) test, from his comments on the history of the Papp engine and from his description of an interview of an eyewitness to the Feynmann accident that he believes there is probably something to the Papp engine and that it is a worthy line of exploration. Eric
Re: [Vo]:McKubre clarifies his view of the Celani demonstration
I wish we had more guys looking over these Papp engines to determine whether or not they are real. The concept is interesting, and of course there are problems that need resolution before quantity production could be considered. I have been thinking of the behavior of a crossed field device of this nature and think there may be something there, but it is quite complex. Review the operation of magnetrons if you want to see some similar characteristics. I am still attempting to calculate the electromagnetic power pulse applied to the piston, since it apparently does not operate as a heat engine. At them moment it is not clear how the nobel gas ion mixture supplies the reaction momentum to the piston motion. One day someone will figue this puppy out. Dave -Original Message- From: ecat builder ecatbuil...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Aug 19, 2012 12:42 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:McKubre clarifies his view of the Celani demonstration I would love to hear Mike's real thoughts on the the Papp engine and whether he thinks it is an interesting /unexplained phenomenon or we are close to a commercial product. Its unfortunate that the Rohner boys can't play nice--Bob just shut down all of his brother John's YouTube videos.. Bob: http://www.rohnermachine.com/ John: http://plasmerg.com/ - Brad On Sat, Aug 18, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: I sent Mike a copy of the message I posted here, along with Robert Lynn's analysis. He responded: It would be fair to say that I have some concerns and am working with others to see if these can be resolved. I also think that the core of the experiment is a very clever idea and look forward to seeing more quantitative data. - Jed
[Vo]:McKubre clarifies his view of the Celani demonstration
I sent Mike a copy of the message I posted here, along with Robert Lynn's analysis. He responded: It would be fair to say that I have some concerns and am working with others to see if these can be resolved. I also think that the core of the experiment is a very clever idea and look forward to seeing more quantitative data. - Jed
