[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.”
On 2012-01-03 19:16, David Roberson wrote: I agree with your assessment. Products such as the ECAT will not be sold over the counter in Home Depot. Right now you can not buy heat pumps there as the government requires certified installers due to the dangers involved. There are few customers capable of making the connections required to operate an ECAT, and I am confident that an experienced HVAC company will be necessary. Well, I imagine that this would not be a problem for simpler stand-alone devices such as E-Cat based space heaters, or (in the hypothetical future) electric generators, or am I wrong? Cheers, S.A.
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.”
There would be no moving parts. With proper engineering it will be safer than an air conditioner with inverter and heat pump function even simpler than a pellet stove. Those things are all sold over the counter. mic 2012/1/3 David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com: I agree with your assessment. Products such as the ECAT will not be sold over the counter in Home Depot. Right now you can not buy heat pumps there as the government requires certified installers due to the dangers involved. There are few customers capable of making the connections required to operate an ECAT, and I am confident that an experienced HVAC company will be necessary. Dave -Original Message- From: Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jan 3, 2012 10:45 am Subject: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.” I would love for this to be true ..BUT... It overlooks the choke point surrounding certifications - You just know big oil is going to leverage this to thwart cold fusion so it is far more likely that any residential product will first be distributed in 3rd world and pirate nations. The economic advantage gained by these uncertified units is what will force acceptance of the product or risk losing our standard of living to the early adopters. Fran -Original Message- From: Akira Shirakawa [mailto:shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 10:24 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.” On 2012-01-03 12:13, Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: [...] adding that “We are in talks with Home Depot for the diffusion”. Wow, this would be great news if confirmed, although when Rossi names specific companies he is usually honest, so there's not much reason to doubt this could be true. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.”
I think it would be possible to buy a stand alone space heater if the nuclear issue does not get too much attention. I guess it might be possible to purchase any safe stand alone product that does not require the customer to modify or add wiring or piping systems. I have not seen where Rossi has suggested that he is pursuing small devices for this type of applications but I would think that a market should exist for them if the cost is reasonable. One big problem is the requirement to have the units serviced every six months. This is not reasonable for stand alone products that are cost effective and I suspect that this is an attempt to control the fuel where an continuing stream of money goes to the supplying company. Reminds me of the old way of doing business which we all would love to see eliminated. Dave -Original Message- From: Akira Shirakawa shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jan 3, 2012 1:21 pm Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.” On 2012-01-03 19:16, David Roberson wrote: I agree with your assessment. Products such as the ECAT will not be sold over the counter in Home Depot. Right now you can not buy heat pumps there as the government requires certified installers due to the dangers involved. There are few customers capable of making the connections required to operate an ECAT, and I am confident that an experienced HVAC company will be necessary. Well, I imagine that this would not be a problem for simpler stand-alone evices such as E-Cat based space heaters, or (in the hypothetical uture) electric generators, or am I wrong? Cheers, .A.
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.”
On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 10:33 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I think it would be possible to buy a stand alone space heater if the nuclear issue does not get too much attention. I guess it might be possible to purchase any safe stand alone product that does not require the customer to modify or add wiring or piping systems. I have not seen where Rossi has suggested that he is pursuing small devices for this type of applications but I would think that a market should exist for them if the cost is reasonable. One big problem is the requirement to have the units serviced every six months. This is not reasonable for stand alone products that are cost effective and I suspect that this is an attempt to control the fuel where an continuing stream of money goes to the supplying company. Reminds me of the old way of doing business which we all would love to see eliminated. Assuming it's real, I don't think we know enough about this device to know whether or not it's safe under any circumstances. And we won't know until it's properly tested. In his blog, Rossi reported a history of dozens of explosions. How and why those happened, he didn't say. He also says it's intrinsically safe but he doesn't say why. And if the reactor heats a room by making steam, steam itself is dangerous for ordinary end users and consumers. Central steam heat and radiators in rooms are not usually assembled and serviced by the end user. It would be understatement to say that there are lots of unanswered questions.
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.”
You can buy heat pumps, air conditioners, tankless water heaters, gas water heaters, 60A circuit breakers, poisons, muriactic acid, and lots of other things that can kill you at the Home Depot. HD also provides professional installation of solar and HVAC. I think this fits in very nicely with Rossi's blog response: The E-Cats will be serviced from our nearest agency. We will be closer to our Customers than you can imagine, with the system we will use. - Brad over the counter in Home Depot. Right now you can not buy heat pumps there as the government requires certified installers due to the dangers involved. There are few customers capable of making the connections
Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.”
One problem with small units is the localization of the heat. A modest sized home is much more comfortable with a central heating or cooling system that uses air ducts to transport the heat throughout the house. Is this not the most common type of system used in the developed world or am I biased? I think of Home Depot as being mainly within the western world and not the developing countries. I can see great opportunities for the type of products that you mention in areas that are not subjected to the regulations that protect consumers. Maybe these regions will offer the lead toward universal applications of ECAT type units. Dave -Original Message- From: Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jan 3, 2012 1:30 pm Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.” There would be no moving parts. With proper engineering it will be afer than an air conditioner with inverter and heat pump function ven simpler than a pellet stove. Those things are all sold over the ounter. mic 012/1/3 David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com: I agree with your assessment. Products such as the ECAT will not be sold over the counter in Home Depot. Right now you can not buy heat pumps there as the government requires certified installers due to the dangers involved. There are few customers capable of making the connections required to operate an ECAT, and I am confident that an experienced HVAC company will be necessary. Dave -Original Message- From: Roarty, Francis X francis.x.roa...@lmco.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jan 3, 2012 10:45 am Subject: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.” I would love for this to be true ..BUT... It overlooks the choke point surrounding certifications - You just know big oil is going to leverage this to thwart cold fusion so it is far more likely that any residential product will first be distributed in 3rd world and pirate nations. The economic advantage gained by these uncertified units is what will force acceptance of the product or risk losing our standard of living to the early adopters. Fran -Original Message- From: Akira Shirakawa [mailto:shirakawa.ak...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2012 10:24 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.” On 2012-01-03 12:13, Aussie Guy E-Cat wrote: [...] adding that “We are in talks with Home Depot for the diffusion”. Wow, this would be great news if confirmed, although when Rossi names specific companies he is usually honest, so there's not much reason to doubt this could be true. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.”
I guess we must assume it is real if we are to discuss the installation issues! I would also be concerned about the dangers of steam explosions or other safety issues if the current design is employed. We might be premature in our assessment of the products that will follow with additional engineering. I have envisioned an air cooled device with a small internal fan to spread the heat around a room. It is not clear to me that any liquid is required if the power is low and adequate heat conduction available. Should we not assume that future product engineering will be applied to solve the main problems and improve the systems? My first desktop computer would make me ill if I had to use it now. It takes time for products to evolve into their prime. The recharge issue is my main gripe at this point and I really think that it will be resolved in an acceptable manner. The customers should have the ability to buy a replacement core at Walmart or Home Depot or online when their current one is depleted. A lot of applications would only require the product to generate heat infrequently and the core should last until the hydrogen leaks out. Hopefully this would be a few years. Dave -Original Message- From: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jan 3, 2012 1:42 pm Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.” On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 10:33 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I think it would be possible to buy a stand alone space heater if the nuclear issue does not get too much attention. I guess it might be possible to purchase any safe stand alone product that does not require the customer to modify or add wiring or piping systems. I have not seen where Rossi has suggested that he is pursuing small devices for this type of applications but I would think that a market should exist for them if the cost is reasonable. One big problem is the requirement to have the units serviced every six months. This is not reasonable for stand alone products that are cost effective and I suspect that this is an attempt to control the fuel where an continuing stream of money goes to the supplying company. Reminds me of the old way of doing business which we all would love to see eliminated. Assuming it's real, I don't think we know enough about this device to know whether or not it's safe under any circumstances. And we won't know until it's properly tested. In his blog, Rossi reported a history of dozens of explosions. How and why those happened, he didn't say. He also says it's intrinsically safe but he doesn't say why. And if the reactor heats a room by making steam, steam itself is dangerous for ordinary end users and consumers. Central steam heat and radiators in rooms are not usually assembled and serviced by the end user. It would be understatement to say that there are lots of unanswered questions.
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.”
David Roberson wrote: One problem with small units is the localization of the heat. A modest sized home is much more comfortable with a central heating or cooling system that uses air ducts to transport the heat throughout the house. An eCat heater would use the same air ducts. It would replace the gas fired furnace, or heat pump. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.”
Really? Maybe it depends upon the local rules. In this area you can buy replacement water heaters at Home Depot but none of the other items that require you to modify wiring. Surely you are kidding about heat pumps. These must be limited to professional installers with a license as few customers would have a clue about installing them in their homes. I do not have a good vacuum pump around since that would be required. And even the purchase of the coolants is highly restricted here. Maybe you live in an area that has far less rules than I am accustomed to. Dave -Original Message- From: ecat builder ecatbuil...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jan 3, 2012 1:42 pm Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.” You can buy heat pumps, air conditioners, tankless water heaters, gas ater heaters, 60A circuit breakers, poisons, muriactic acid, and lots f other things that can kill you at the Home Depot. HD also provides rofessional installation of solar and HVAC. I think this fits in ery nicely with Rossi's blog response: The E-Cats will be serviced rom our nearest agency. We will be closer to our Customers than you an imagine, with the system we will use. - Brad over the counter in Home Depot. Right now you can not buy heat pumps there as the government requires certified installers due to the dangers involved. There are few customers capable of making the connections
Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.”
That is what I would hope will happen some day. Does anyone know whether or not Rossi or Defkalion are designing their devices to standards required for the refit? My main question is related to the knowledge required for the installation and the local rules. Here, Home Depot does not sell heat pumps because they say you must have a license in order to install it. I actually asked once when my unit failed. Would there not be a major warranty issue if the customer just took it home and then screwed up the install? Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jan 3, 2012 2:02 pm Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.” David Roberson wrote: One problem with small units is the localization of the heat. A modest sized home is much more comfortable with a central heating or cooling system that uses air ducts to transport the heat throughout the house. An eCat heater would use the same air ducts. It would replace the gas fired furnace, or heat pump. - Jed
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.”
From Dave: I agree with your assessment. Products such as the ECAT will not be sold over the counter in Home Depot. Right now you can not buy heat pumps there as the government requires certified installers due to the dangers involved. There are few customers capable of making the connections required to operate an ECAT, and I am confident that an experienced HVAC company will be necessary. Perhaps a more likely scenario (being negotiated between Rossi and HD) would be to use Rossi's eCats to heat the Home Depot stores. IOW, NOT to sell eCats to customers. Those outlet stores are huge warehouses. I can only imagine what their heating bills must be like in the middle of a Mid-Western winter. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.”
David Roberson wrote: Really? Maybe it depends upon the local rules. In this area you can buy replacement water heaters at Home Depot but none of the other items that require you to modify wiring. Surely you are kidding about heat pumps. These must be limited to professional installers with a license . . . See: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-203013146/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1storeId=10051catalogId=10053 http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-203013146/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1storeId=10051catalogId=10053 http://www.homedepot.com/hdus/en_US/DTCCOM/HomePage/Docs/HVAC_Trane_ENG_Online.pdf http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ContentView?pn=SV_HS_HVAC_ReplacementlangId=-1storeId=10051catalogId=10053cm_sp=SV-_-link_map-_-hvac_replacement http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ContentView?pn=SV_HS_HVAC_ReplacementlangId=-1storeId=10051catalogId=10053cm_sp=SV-_-link_map-_-hvac_replacement - Jed
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.”
David Roberson wrote: That is what I would hope will happen some day. Does anyone know whether or not Rossi or Defkalion are designing their devices to standards required for the refit? How else would they do it? My main question is related to the knowledge required for the installation and the local rules. Here, Home Depot does not sell heat pumps because they say you must have a license in order to install it. Yes, they do sell heat pumps. They sell lots of equipment that requires a license to install, such as electric wiring and plumbing. I believe what you mean is they do not let just anyone purchase a heat pump and drive off with it. That may be true. - Jed
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.”
In general, in areas where I have lived, anyone can do electrical work as long as it's inspected by a licensed electrician before it goes into service. Ditto plumbing, IIRC. (And if you look at rental apartments that started out as pieces of single family homes, you'll find that enforcement of the requirement to get it inspected to be sure it follows code is often a bit lax.) Don't recall the details, there may be some other hoops to jump through, but homeowners are certainly not out in the cold if they want to do their own wiring. It just needs to be done right, with the right permits, following the right rules, and, as I said, with the right inspections. So, I suppose you could also install a Rossi Roarer yourself, and just get the appropriate NRC inspector to give it the thumbs up before you turn it on... On 12-01-03 03:10 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: David Roberson wrote: Really? Maybe it depends upon the local rules. In this area you can buy replacement water heaters at Home Depot but none of the other items that require you to modify wiring. Surely you are kidding about heat pumps. These must be limited to professional installers with a license . . . See: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-203013146/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1storeId=10051catalogId=10053 http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-203013146/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1storeId=10051catalogId=10053 http://www.homedepot.com/hdus/en_US/DTCCOM/HomePage/Docs/HVAC_Trane_ENG_Online.pdf http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ContentView?pn=SV_HS_HVAC_ReplacementlangId=-1storeId=10051catalogId=10053cm_sp=SV-_-link_map-_-hvac_replacement http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ContentView?pn=SV_HS_HVAC_ReplacementlangId=-1storeId=10051catalogId=10053cm_sp=SV-_-link_map-_-hvac_replacement - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: I translate pressure as responsibility.
On 12-01-03 03:19 PM, Alan J Fletcher wrote: At 12:10 PM 1/3/2012, Jed Rothwell wrote: http://www.homedepot.com/hdus/en_US/DTCCOM/HomePage/Docs/HVAC_Trane_ENG_Online.pdf Yeah .. but that one says: The Home Depot works only with home service professionals who meet the highest standards for experience, know-how and customer service. We screen and perform background checks on all installers and make sure that licenses.. and insurance are current. That's if you're getting Home Depot to handle the installation for you. They're just saying they won't send Bozo the Clown over to your house to install your new Home Depot toilet. That's why they're emphasizing how exclusive they are, rather than saying We deal with any licensed professional; all electricians and plumbers should buy their supplies right from us! It would make no sense for a plumbing supply house to do a background check on a plumber who walks in and just wants to buy a toilet! It's not like it's an AK-47 or something, after all! If you want to just throw the equipment in the back of your pickup truck and drive off, it's something else again. In that case they're not working with you, and they're sure not doing a background check before they let you buy it.
Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.”
All of these references are for you to work with a professional installation company. That is what I would expect. I had the impression that someone was suggesting that you could just go into the store and buy one without the proper license. In the case of Home Depot, they are just helping the customer select a unit that is later installed by the professionals. This is not much different than the current technique of contracting directly with a local HVAC company. Water heaters however can be bought directly by the customers and I have done that in a couple of cases. Installation evolves connecting the 240 volt wiring and water pipes to the unit, but they are already in the correct local when a replacement is done. It looks like Rossi is mainly seeking a partner to advertise his products in a multitude of markets. Home Depot is located just about everywhere and hence Rossi is putting the burden upon them to find professional installers within each area. In actuality this plan may be a quicker way to introduce his products than waiting for the local HVAC companies to seek ECATs themselves. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jan 3, 2012 3:10 pm Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.” David Roberson wrote: Really? Maybe it depends upon the local rules. In this area you can buy replacement water heaters at Home Depot but none of the other items that require you to modify wiring. Surely you are kidding about heat pumps. These must be limited to professional installers with a license . . . See: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-203013146/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1storeId=10051catalogId=10053 http://www.homedepot.com/hdus/en_US/DTCCOM/HomePage/Docs/HVAC_Trane_ENG_Online.pdf http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ContentView?pn=SV_HS_HVAC_ReplacementlangId=-1storeId=10051catalogId=10053cm_sp=SV-_-link_map-_-hvac_replacement - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.”
So far I have not seen anything about design of the ECATs to fit HVAC standards. Have I missed some references to that effect? We agree that it will be required, but have you seen any actual documents? Yes, I was trying to point out that they would not let me as a non licensed hacker buy a heat pump and walk out the door with it. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jan 3, 2012 3:13 pm Subject: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Andrea Rossi interview on Ca$h Flow: “I translate pressure as responsibility.” David Roberson wrote: That is what I would hope will happen some day. Does anyone know whether or not Rossi or Defkalion are designing their devices to standards required for the refit? How else would they do it? My main question is related to the knowledge required for the installation and the local rules. Here, Home Depot does not sell heat pumps because they say you must have a license in order to install it. Yes, they do sell heat pumps. They sell lots of equipment that requires a license to install, such as electric wiring and plumbing. I believe what you mean is they do not let just anyone purchase a heat pump and drive off with it. That may be true. - Jed
