subject:"Re\: \[Vo\]\:Kudos to Jed"

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-15 Thread Axil Axil

*It’s ironic, recent history has shown that public demos of LENR reactors
are counterproductive to advance the interests of those who do the demos.
Those who are in the LENR reactor business are well advised to keep quiet
publicly. Keep demonstrations small, private, and intimate.*



*Workers who are associated with organizations that do public demos have
their integrity questioned and their reputations besmirched, and the
organizations are accused of fraud.*



*The tendency to proclaim to the world how wonderful your accomplishments
are must be suppressed vigorously. Such demonstrations of pride in public
will only result in recrimination for all those associated with that
organization and the undermining of LENR in general. **Mum's the word.*






On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 5:08 PM, Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.comwrote:

 Of course it is kudos to Jed. Here some facts as I understand them:

 1. I do not think Jed became a spokes person FOR DGT as they did not pay
 him as agreed. Seldom can you win support by mistreating people. I think
 that without knowing Jed (except from this sight) I can determine that he
 would not first  publish a minor (money wise) dispute with DGT and then
 make up a reason their result is not true. He would take an unnecessary
 risk in doing so. Why not rather claim there result is false and discredit
 them if he could. (He will not get any money anyhow). No, I think there is
 no reason we have to make this in to a personal vendetta.
 2. Is there different standards? No, of course not. I think, if they do
 not swiftly defend an accusation saying there measurements are faulty, then
 they have no defense Their results are faulty and their claims are
 non-existing.
 3. Thus my conclusion is; 'DGT does not play in the LENR development'.
 Their result and methods does not warrant any comments.
 4. Am I going to be wrong in December when they produce this rumored COP
 of 100? Not at all. Either they think they are fine being the only one on
 the planet who knows something, which nobody knows but they do not want to
 tell. Or they have found the way from having nothing today to something
 viable in December. In the first scenario I think we can agree that they
 have mislead everyone without comments (but with purpose) and thereby
 losing credibility. In the second case they are among other unknown, who
 have no comments.
 My main point is, why kill the messenger?

 BTW I think Rossi and the new investors are making a mistake not revealing
 their plans. I do understand strategic reasons for not giving away details.
 However, as we talk about a revolutionary product easy and cheap to
 produce, why not tell the outlines for the future. I begin to wonder if
 there is engineering problems, which prevents them from revealing their
 marketing plans. This is how conspiracy rumors are born so just await them
 rather than a frank statement saying;' This is where we are and here is a
 problem we are working on. Then we will . . . . .'

 Why so much secrecy? Why not frankly say how things are (not revealing
 technical details)? This mystification pared with very sophisticated
 discussions about nuclear physics and QM makes any investor leery to take
 action.

 Best Regards ,
 Lennart Thornros

 www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
 lenn...@thornros.com
 +1 916 436 1899
 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650

 “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
 commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM


 On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote:

 James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:

 Its pretty clear that Jed is attempting to hold DGT to the same standard
 as Rossi et al.  Of course, the bar set by Rossi et al in terms of
 disclosure is pretty low -- so I can see his frustration with DGT as
 reasonable.


 Rossi's has set the disclosure bar so low he would win a limbo contest.
 Rossi has disclosed practically nothing. The quality of his tests ranged
 from bad to ridiculous.

  I believe Rossi because other people independently tested his devices
 and confirmed the claims. Specifically, the people at Ampenergo, U.
 Bologna, and ELFORSK. Several other people tested his devices and found
 they did not work. If it were not for those independent tests, I would not
 believe one word of Rossi's claims.

 Defkalion has not published any results. Not one test. Not one graph. So
 we have no basis to judge them. Except up until now I could sort of judge
 by the rumors, and the stray comments by experts under NDA, who said the
 gadget does not work. That is not much to go on, but it looked bad. Then I
 heard their flow rate measurement was wrong. How wrong, I did not know, but
 even Hadjichristos confirmed it was wrong.

 Now, finally, we have a definitive result: the calorimetry is wrong.

 Unless and until they publish some other result, it is case closed. They
 have nothing.

 Look, people make stupid mistakes. It

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-15 Thread Lennart Thornros

Axil, I think your conclusion is too simple. I will give you an example
from my life.

As a young business man it happened that I was interviewed by local
newspapers.  After a few interviews I was very disappointed and concluded;
To hell with the media they misunderstand everything. A few years later I
had a corporate job and media was part of the job. A part I hated. However,
after some time I had better luck and the outcome was more to my liking. (I
am not saying I am good at it but I am better than when I was young:).

What is the to find from that? That media has learnt to understand me? Nae,
the other way around of course - I had figured out how to express myself
better and in a way that I left very little room for interpretation. I
think that we have the same issue with LENR demos. It is part of the 'job'
to provide info and proof. It has to be done with integrity and without
unclear assumptions/predictions.
I also agree that if one cannot do the demos in a controlled way it is
better to not do them. If not informing, there will, however, not be any
recognition and in the long run the result is worth nothing.

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650

“Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM


On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

  *It’s ironic, recent history has shown that public demos of LENR
 reactors are counterproductive to advance the interests of those who do the
 demos. Those who are in the LENR reactor business are well advised to keep
 quiet publicly. Keep demonstrations small, private, and intimate.*



 *Workers who are associated with organizations that do public demos have
 their integrity questioned and their reputations besmirched, and the
 organizations are accused of fraud.*



 *The tendency to proclaim to the world how wonderful your accomplishments
 are must be suppressed vigorously. Such demonstrations of pride in public
 will only result in recrimination for all those associated with that
 organization and the undermining of LENR in general. **Mum's the word.*






 On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 5:08 PM, Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.comwrote:

 Of course it is kudos to Jed. Here some facts as I understand them:

 1. I do not think Jed became a spokes person FOR DGT as they did not pay
 him as agreed. Seldom can you win support by mistreating people. I think
 that without knowing Jed (except from this sight) I can determine that he
 would not first  publish a minor (money wise) dispute with DGT and then
 make up a reason their result is not true. He would take an unnecessary
 risk in doing so. Why not rather claim there result is false and discredit
 them if he could. (He will not get any money anyhow). No, I think there is
 no reason we have to make this in to a personal vendetta.
 2. Is there different standards? No, of course not. I think, if they do
 not swiftly defend an accusation saying there measurements are faulty, then
 they have no defense Their results are faulty and their claims are
 non-existing.
 3. Thus my conclusion is; 'DGT does not play in the LENR development'.
 Their result and methods does not warrant any comments.
 4. Am I going to be wrong in December when they produce this rumored COP
 of 100? Not at all. Either they think they are fine being the only one on
 the planet who knows something, which nobody knows but they do not want to
 tell. Or they have found the way from having nothing today to something
 viable in December. In the first scenario I think we can agree that they
 have mislead everyone without comments (but with purpose) and thereby
 losing credibility. In the second case they are among other unknown, who
 have no comments.
 My main point is, why kill the messenger?

 BTW I think Rossi and the new investors are making a mistake not
 revealing their plans. I do understand strategic reasons for not giving
 away details. However, as we talk about a revolutionary product easy and
 cheap to produce, why not tell the outlines for the future. I begin to
 wonder if there is engineering problems, which prevents them from revealing
 their marketing plans. This is how conspiracy rumors are born so just await
 them rather than a frank statement saying;' This is where we are and here
 is a problem we are working on. Then we will . . . . .'

 Why so much secrecy? Why not frankly say how things are (not revealing
 technical details)? This mystification pared with very sophisticated
 discussions about nuclear physics and QM makes any investor leery to take
 action.

 Best Regards ,
 Lennart Thornros

 www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
 lenn...@thornros.com
 +1 916 436 1899
 6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650

 “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
 commitment to excellence,

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-15 Thread Daniel Rocha

Lennart,

High powered Cold Fusion is unlike any invention in the recorded history of
mankind. It is a paradigm shift of the greatest degree. Keeping it a secret
is not unreasonable. It would not be strange that in the event this is
proven true, military force may be used to acquire the technology.


2014-05-15 13:40 GMT-03:00 Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com:

 Axil, I think your conclusion is too simple. I will give you an example
 from my life.

 As a young business man it happened that I was interviewed by local
 newspapers.  After a few interviews I was very disappointed and concluded;
 To hell with the media they misunderstand everything. A few years later I
 had a corporate job and media was part of the job. A part I hated. However,
 after some time I had better luck and the outcome was more to my liking. (I
 am not saying I am good at it but I am better than when I was young:).

 What is the to find from that? That media has learnt to understand me?
 Nae, the other way around of course - I had figured out how to express
 myself better and in a way that I left very little room for interpretation.
 I think that we have the same issue with LENR demos. It is part of the
 'job' to provide info and proof. It has to be done with integrity and
 without unclear assumptions/predictions.
 I also agree that if one cannot do the demos in a controlled way it is
 better to not do them. If not informing, there will, however, not be any
 recognition and in the long run the result is worth nothing.

 Best Regards ,
 Lennart Thornros



-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-15 Thread Lennart Thornros

I agree with you Daniel - it is a paradigm shift. However, if it is not
communicated it is nothing. I think I said that there is a time to give
info until then being silent is an option if you can reach the goal by
yourself. Most people need help (mostly financial but even technical) and
it is therefore required to communicate and inform. The communication needs
to be following rules set up by the culture / society.

The problem just now, in my opinion, is that there are indications about at
least one viable solution. As it is such a great thing if mastered there
should be resources set aside to keep the all important information flow
going without interruption.

Your military scare is just as I mentioned before. Lack of information
means a lot of rumors. I btw do not think the military can / will do
anything as it is not feasible for a number of reasons. Already spread
information is one and the fact that this an international community. Just
cut the military out if they don't want to invest:)

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650

“Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM


On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 9:48 AM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:

 Lennart,

 High powered Cold Fusion is unlike any invention in the recorded history
 of mankind. It is a paradigm shift of the greatest degree. Keeping it a
 secret is not unreasonable. It would not be strange that in the event this
 is proven true, military force may be used to acquire the technology.


 2014-05-15 13:40 GMT-03:00 Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com:

 Axil, I think your conclusion is too simple. I will give you an example
 from my life.

 As a young business man it happened that I was interviewed by local
 newspapers.  After a few interviews I was very disappointed and concluded;
 To hell with the media they misunderstand everything. A few years later I
 had a corporate job and media was part of the job. A part I hated. However,
 after some time I had better luck and the outcome was more to my liking. (I
 am not saying I am good at it but I am better than when I was young:).

 What is the to find from that? That media has learnt to understand me?
 Nae, the other way around of course - I had figured out how to express
 myself better and in a way that I left very little room for interpretation.
 I think that we have the same issue with LENR demos. It is part of the
 'job' to provide info and proof. It has to be done with integrity and
 without unclear assumptions/predictions.
 I also agree that if one cannot do the demos in a controlled way it is
 better to not do them. If not informing, there will, however, not be any
 recognition and in the long run the result is worth nothing.

 Best Regards ,
 Lennart Thornros



 --
 Daniel Rocha - RJ
 danieldi...@gmail.com

False rumors help dispels that threat, given that it is a highly
stigmatized field. I think that, with an invention of this proportion, the
greed, no, the ambition, can make anyone with a huge stick in power break
up any law.

2014-05-15 14:10 GMT-03:00 Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com:

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I agree with you Daniel - it is a paradigm shift. However, if it is not
communicated it is nothing. I think I said that there is a time to give
info until then being silent is an option if you can reach the goal by
yourself. Most people need help (mostly financial but even technical) and
it is therefore required to communicate and inform. The communication needs
to be following rules set up by the culture / society.

The problem just now, in my opinion, is that there are indications about
at least one viable solution. As it is such a great thing if mastered there
should be resources set aside to keep the all important information flow
going without interruption.

Your military scare is just as I mentioned before. Lack of information
means a lot of rumors. I btw do not think the military can / will do
anything as it is not feasible for a number of reasons. Already spread
information is one and the fact that this an international community. Just
cut the military out if they don't want to invest:)

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650

“Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 9:48 AM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.comwrote:

Lennart,

High powered Cold Fusion is unlike any invention in the recorded history
of mankind. It is a paradigm shift of the greatest degree. Keeping it a
secret is not unreasonable. It would not be strange that in the event this
is proven true, military force may be used to acquire the technology.

2014-05-15 13:40 GMT-03:00 Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com:

Axil, I think your conclusion is too simple. I will give you an example
from my life.

As a young business man it happened that I was interviewed by local
newspapers. After a few interviews I was very disappointed and concluded;
To hell with the media they misunderstand everything. A few years later I
had a corporate job and media was part of the job. A part I hated. However,
after some time I had better luck and the outcome was more to my liking. (I
am not saying I am good at it but I am better than when I was young:).

What is the to find from that? That media has learnt to understand me?
Nae, the other way around of course - I had figured out how to express
myself better and in a way that I left very little room for interpretation.
I think that we have the same issue with LENR demos. It is part of the
'job' to provide info and proof. It has to be done with integrity and
without unclear assumptions/predictions.
I also agree that if one cannot do the demos in a controlled way it is
better to not do them. If not informing, there will, however, not be any
recognition and in the long run the result is worth nothing.

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

--
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-15 Thread Axil Axil

*There is a war underway: an energy war in which the US is trying to turn
Russia away from its ambitions of renewed empire. *

*Russia wants to sell gas to China to protect against American LPG imports
to Europe. That is a 100 billion dollar deal over 30 years.*

*What happens when all that gas has no market in China? Does China still
take the gas? What happens to Putin and his designs to change the borders
in Eastern Europe when his economy is in ruins? *

*What will Putin do to counter the new super weapon of mass energy
disruption? We will know the answers to all this is a year or two.*

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:

2014-05-15 14:10 GMT-03:00 Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com:

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Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650

“Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 9:48 AM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.comwrote:

Lennart,

2014-05-15 13:40 GMT-03:00 Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com:

Axil, I think your conclusion is too simple. I will give you an example
from my life.

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

--
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-15 Thread Lennart Thornros

Daniel - I basically believe in the positive side of man kind. Any false
information will do no good. Just the opposite. I am aware that there is
evil people but they have no room to play if information is forthcoming in
a complete and accurate form.

Axil - Yes there is military stands all the time. Almost all the wars has
been fought because of getting control of natural resources. I do not see
LENR being so easy a target. It has no borders.
Other issues:
1. Russia was my neighbor for 45 years and has been considered an enemy for
centuries in Scandinavia. They have cycles all built on isolationism.
Historically US is also is an isolated nation. I see no merit in trying to
proof who has the biggest one. However, I am sure some military or
politician has that ambition but I think the US population is tired of US
intervention abroad to no gain.
2. Russia wants to sell gas to all of Eurasia - of course. Why do we worry
about that. It is hardly a good set up to try to compete with shipped gas
versus pipelined.
3. We have no idea when a LENR solution is going to be available. I think
10 to 15 years is a fair estimate, if the speed of development will
increase as we have a viable (Rossi) process. Many things will happen in
the political world. How will China's new power structure pan out? and many
other things not related to LENR..
4. I was not aware of the super weapon but I assume it will be available to
more nations than the US and then we can start negotiate disarmament and
limitations of number of weapons again. Probably going to be harder this
time.

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650

“Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 10:54 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

*There is a war underway: an energy war in which the US is trying to
turn Russia away from its ambitions of renewed empire. *

*Russia wants to sell gas to China to protect against American LPG imports
to Europe. That is a 100 billion dollar deal over 30 years.*

*What happens when all that gas has no market in China? Does China still
take the gas? What happens to Putin and his designs to change the borders
in Eastern Europe when his economy is in ruins? *

*What will Putin do to counter the new super weapon of mass energy
disruption? We will know the answers to all this is a year or two.*

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.comwrote:

2014-05-15 14:10 GMT-03:00 Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com:

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Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650

“Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a
commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-15 Thread Daniel Rocha

Well, I am not exactly pro US government (quite the opposite). US is trying
to protect its Empire while it decays slowly economically into oblivion.
The only option is expanding its Empire, with a divide and conquer in
European ex colonies, except for ex-colonies between Pakistan and Macau.
Russia (elite) is almost passively trying to protect against NATO expansion
(they sell gas to them, you won't kill your costumer). What will happen?
Well, I don't think they are in a situation similar to 1917, when the
government was completely demoralized and workers organized with a sizable
part of the army in mutiny, and took a couple of decades to stop the
internal strives. I think the situation you described is more similar to
Germany in 1932, with a popular leader, a poverty stricken population and a
brilliant heavy industry engineering. They began giving arms to a crony
government in Spain right after this. But this time, Russia has nukes. If I
had to guess, they'd rather go south, annexing ex-republics, plus Iraq and
Syria, while pulling Iran as a Satellite.

Hopefully, the adoption of the new technology will not be that fast, it
will take a few decades, as Jed says in his book. That's enough for
everyone adjust for the new times.

2014-05-15 14:54 GMT-03:00 Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com:

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*There is a war underway: an energy war in which the US is trying to turn
Russia away from its ambitions of renewed empire. *

*Russia wants to sell gas to China to protect against American LPG imports
to Europe. That is a 100 billion dollar deal over 30 years.*

*What happens when all that gas has no market in China? Does China still
take the gas? What happens to Putin and his designs to change the borders
in Eastern Europe when his economy is in ruins? *

*What will Putin do to counter the new super weapon of mass energy
disruption? We will know the answers to all this is a year or two.*

--
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-15 Thread Daniel Rocha

I don't know how to judge mankind. Each person is a universe in itself, I
don't know how to tell if they are good or evil, a binary division. But in
general, people respond to what is present to their senses. So, creating a
fog is not necessarily evil, it may be necessary, in some circumstances,
to even save one's neck.

2014-05-15 15:34 GMT-03:00 Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com:

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 Daniel - I basically believe in the positive side of man kind. Any false
 information will do no good. Just the opposite. I am aware that there is
 evil people but they have no room to play if information is forthcoming in
 a complete and accurate form.

-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-15 Thread Paul Breed

I've now been watching this field for the better part of 30yrs.
I remember the hope that accompanied the P+F announcement.
I started paying more attention again about 18 mo ago.

If one was to graph credibility and percentage of break even carnot COP

IMHO I would have to put the 50% credible line at a COP of 2 and
temperature of 100C.

I keep hoping that some one will show up with a device that can reliably
close the loop and generate more
energy than in uses in a closed loop. I'm still waiting, Ive been waiting
for close to 30 years.

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:

I don't know how to judge mankind. Each person is a universe in itself, I
don't know how to tell if they are good or evil, a binary division. But in
general, people respond to what is present to their senses. So, creating a
fog is not necessarily evil, it may be necessary, in some circumstances,
to even save one's neck.

2014-05-15 15:34 GMT-03:00 Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com:

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--
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-15 Thread Foks0904 .

Imagine where CF would be if it had enjoyed the same level of investment
and RD as the failed hot fusion projects, which have produced nothing
(well maybe about 1 triumphant second of COP 1.0) for decades, and
continues to get a free pass based on an endless parade of false promises.
I much rather deal with disappointments in the CF field, knowing at least
that COP well greater than 1 is achievable, and would be consistent if the
patent office wasn't a political monstrosity and CF actually got some real
money invested into it to figure out the mechanism. All things considered
I'd say the CF field has been a great success these last 25 years.

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 6:00 PM, Paul Breed p...@rasdoc.com wrote:

I've now been watching this field for the better part of 30yrs.
I remember the hope that accompanied the P+F announcement.
I started paying more attention again about 18 mo ago.

If one was to graph credibility and percentage of break even carnot COP

IMHO I would have to put the 50% credible line at a COP of 2 and
temperature of 100C.

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.comwrote:

2014-05-15 15:34 GMT-03:00 Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com:

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--
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-15 Thread Bob Cook

I think Rossi has killed off your waiting.  It happened 1 1/2 years ago with 
his 490Kw reactor demonstration in Italy.  The closed loop issue is only 
academic IMHO.

Bob
  - Original Message - 
  From: Paul Breed 
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2014 3:00 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

  I've now been watching this field for the better part of 30yrs.
  I remember the hope that accompanied the P+F  announcement.
  I started paying more attention again about 18 mo ago.

  If one was to graph credibility and  percentage of break even carnot COP 

  IMHO I would have to put the 50% credible line at a COP of 2 and temperature 
of 100C.

  I keep hoping that  some one will show up with a device that  can reliably 
close the loop and generate more 
  energy than in uses in a closed loop.  I'm still waiting, Ive been waiting 
for close to 30 years.

  On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:

I don't know how to judge mankind. Each person is a universe in itself, I 
don't know how to tell if they are good or evil, a binary division. But in 
general, people respond to what is present to their senses. So, creating a fog 
is not necessarily evil, it may be necessary, in some circumstances, to even 
save one's neck.

2014-05-15 15:34 GMT-03:00 Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com:

This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (lenn...@thornros.com) 
Add cleanup rule | More info 

  Daniel - I basically believe in the positive side of man kind. Any false 
information will do no good. Just the opposite. I am aware that there is evil 
people but they have no room to play if information is forthcoming in a 
complete and accurate form.
-- 

Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread Alain Sepeda

If you see greentech, or Internet companies, it is not so different.
the problem is that it is much more tolerated and ignored for mainstream
and fashion technologies than for lenr.

even good startup with good technologies crash most of the time


2014-05-14 6:26 GMT+02:00 Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com:

 On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Foks0904 . foks0...@gmail.com wrote:

 We have to be careful.


 Without regard to DGT, specifically, I think there is a recurring lesson
 here.  In the LENR and free energy fields, more than any other fields I
 have followed, there is a certain type of amped-up businessman who belongs
 in a late-night infomercial but instead makes wacky claims somewhere on the
 Internet.  Whether you would call what they're doing fraud or not probably
 depends in part upon the mindset and intention of the people, if any, who
 have given them money.  In this context it is something of a miracle that
 Rossi's work has stood out as likely being genuine and have not simply
 blended into the background.  The LENR researchers, too, on the whole, do
 not fit this pattern, although some of them are obviously credulous.  A few
 of them do appear to be infomercial salesmen as well.

 Even when people seem credible and genuine, it is good to follow up and
 ask for some data to support what they're saying.

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread Teslaalset

I would not write them off too quickly.
They had NASA over (not formally confirmed I believe) and NASA seems to be
quite convinced LENR has revived in a serious way. Maybe Rossi was visited
too.
Defkalion's weak point is bad engineering.
This can be resolved.


On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.comwrote:

 If you see greentech, or Internet companies, it is not so different.
 the problem is that it is much more tolerated and ignored for mainstream
 and fashion technologies than for lenr.

 even good startup with good technologies crash most of the time


 2014-05-14 6:26 GMT+02:00 Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com:

 On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Foks0904 . foks0...@gmail.com wrote:

 We have to be careful.


 Without regard to DGT, specifically, I think there is a recurring lesson
 here.  In the LENR and free energy fields, more than any other fields I
 have followed, there is a certain type of amped-up businessman who belongs
 in a late-night infomercial but instead makes wacky claims somewhere on the
 Internet.  Whether you would call what they're doing fraud or not probably
 depends in part upon the mindset and intention of the people, if any, who
 have given them money.  In this context it is something of a miracle that
 Rossi's work has stood out as likely being genuine and have not simply
 blended into the background.  The LENR researchers, too, on the whole, do
 not fit this pattern, although some of them are obviously credulous.  A few
 of them do appear to be infomercial salesmen as well.

 Even when people seem credible and genuine, it is good to follow up and
 ask for some data to support what they're saying.

 Eric

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread Peter Gluck

The Gamberale report has a good dosis of ignorance in it (not fully degassed
test with Argon give excess heat due to residual hydrogen) and also too
vivid fantasy- see the results of the tests of 22 and 23 July step by step
plus the Protocol published by DGT 2 days before he test. See also what
say the manufacturers of oval gear flowmeter about this huge increase
of flow via reverse plus direct flow.
DGT will answer.

Peter (just travelling)


On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Teslaalset robbiehobbiesh...@gmail.comwrote:

 I would not write them off too quickly.
 They had NASA over (not formally confirmed I believe) and NASA seems to be
 quite convinced LENR has revived in a serious way. Maybe Rossi was visited
 too.
 Defkalion's weak point is bad engineering.
 This can be resolved.


 On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.comwrote:

 If you see greentech, or Internet companies, it is not so different.
 the problem is that it is much more tolerated and ignored for mainstream
 and fashion technologies than for lenr.

 even good startup with good technologies crash most of the time


 2014-05-14 6:26 GMT+02:00 Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com:

 On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Foks0904 . foks0...@gmail.com wrote:

 We have to be careful.


 Without regard to DGT, specifically, I think there is a recurring lesson
 here.  In the LENR and free energy fields, more than any other fields I
 have followed, there is a certain type of amped-up businessman who belongs
 in a late-night infomercial but instead makes wacky claims somewhere on the
 Internet.  Whether you would call what they're doing fraud or not probably
 depends in part upon the mindset and intention of the people, if any, who
 have given them money.  In this context it is something of a miracle that
 Rossi's work has stood out as likely being genuine and have not simply
 blended into the background.  The LENR researchers, too, on the whole, do
 not fit this pattern, although some of them are obviously credulous.  A few
 of them do appear to be infomercial salesmen as well.

 Even when people seem credible and genuine, it is good to follow up and
 ask for some data to support what they're saying.

 Eric






-- 
Dr. Peter Gluck
Cluj, Romania
http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread Axil Axil

Who is Gamberale, and why should his words be trusted?

There seems to be a way of entering into the Ni/H reactor vender
marketplace that has developed and that Gamberale has decided to take
advantage of.

It all starts with Rossi and Piantelli. Rossi got his start in the NI/H
reactor development game when Rossi hired Piantelli’s research partner to
show Rossi the ropes that Piantilli had developed in the new Ni/H
technology. Rossi took that head start that Piantelli had so painfully
crafted since 1989 and added his own new ideas to move the technology
forward.

Next, DGT understood that NI/H reactor technology was real from the work
that Rossi had done in the partnership with DGT to that point and then when
Rossi decided to pull out of that deal, DGT decided that they had seen
enough to go it alone. It was worth the time and money to go it their own
way to develop a better product than Rossi had up to that time.

Now it is Gamberale’s turn feeding at the trough.

“but he also told me that he personally still believes that LENR is an
important scientific and technological area and that he is getting involved
in two other projects in this domain.”

Where did Gamberale get this feeling that LENR is an important
technological area that he needs to devote his career to? Surely Gamberale
has not gotten any info from Rossi. Rossi will not permit anyone to do to
him what he did to Piantelli.

He can thank DGT for all the knowledge and on the job training he got
working with DGT for his acceptance into the LENR developer’s fray. And who
are these venders he will be working with? And what can Gamberale bring to
their table that he has not gotten from his working life with DGT?

Maybe Gamberale was successful at looking under DGT’s dress for a leg up
into the LENR marketplace; after all, it has been done by a few others
before Gamberale got into this business. If I were these two new victims, I
would not let my reactor unattended and alone with this guy. After all, If
he takes what he needs from a past partner and bad mouths them, he is
likely to do it to his new partners when the time is ripe for them


On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Foks0904 . foks0...@gmail.com wrote:

 I agree Alain. No one needs to pity Dr. Kim, I'm sure he (and others)
 have measured something of relevance, just nothing commercially viable.
 In regards to another point being stated explicitly or eluded to by others
 on vortex since this story dropped, I think it is rather premature to call
 fraud on DGT. That is a rather reactionary stance to take despite the
 shadow of a doubt this new report casts on DGT. As you've just said, I have
 a hard time believing all the data accumulated and/or publicized has been
 fraudulent, but rather over-sold, which is different. If we all just begin
 to villainize DGT this prematurely in a reactionary fashion, how are we any
 better than fundamentalist skeptics? We have to be careful. I'm not saying
 we need to be apologists for DGT by any stretch, but let's not get
 indignant either. Rather lets give this a few months to play out and let
 DGT respond before everyone goes crazy with accusations and innuendo. Just
 my thoughts.

 --- John


 On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.comwrote:

 whether they just have a modest COP and don't want to admit it because
 they sold huge COP before is one thing...
 having nothing seems hard to imagine, but pretending 10x more is possible
 for desperate startup...

 the claims of magnetic field seems exaggerated, but why claiming pure
 imagined phenomenon?

 anyway it is tragic for serious LENr actors, even if later Defkalion
 prove his reactor.


 2014-05-13 15:43 GMT+02:00 Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net:

   *From:* Blaze Spinnaker

 I feel very bad for Dr. Kim, however.



 You shouldn’t. Kim and others may not have been completely duped, and we
 must assume that although DGT could not show the type of gain which would
 allow massive funding, they still very likely have found an energy anomaly
 in the range of COP between 1 and 2. Everything Kim says could apply to a
 lower gain device, which is still beyond the Laws of Physics.



 This range of overunity gain has been seen for 25 years, going back to
 Thermacore, and even at NASA (see the Niedra report) and MIT (by Haldeman,
 never acknowledged by the University). Yet with the advent of Rossi, it is
 no longer of interest to many funders.



 The reality of the funding situation, given the large number of
 claimants in the LENR field is that a COP of greater than 1 but less than 2
 is not going to generate A million dollar check, which was part of the
 flawed DGT business plan. In fact, they want $50 million per license LOL.



 The open issue wrt DGT, and it is a huge technical issue which needs to
 be addressed, hopefully by Dr. Kim - is the large magnetic field, reported
 by DGT.



 Jones

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread Daniel Rocha

The most despicable kind!


2014-05-14 12:39 GMT-03:00 Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com:

  And who are these venders he will be working with?


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread Jed Rothwell

Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

Who is Gamberale, and why should his words be trusted?


It does not matter who he is. We do not need to trust his words. His
conclusions about the flow rate were independently confirmed by people from
NI and by others. Hadjichristos himself admitted there was a problem with
the flow rate. He did not say the problem makes zero liters look like 1
L/min, but other people confirmed this. There is no question about it. That
makes all of their results *worthless*.



 There seems to be a way of entering into the Ni/H reactor vender
 marketplace that has developed and that Gamberale has decided to take
 advantage of.


His company signed a contract with Defkalion and formed a joint venture.
They probably spent a lot of money. They found out the device does not
produce any excess heat. So they did not take advantage of anything.

It was worth the time and money to go it their own way to develop a better
 product than Rossi had up to that time.

Yo! Earth to Axil. Come in please! They do not have any excess heat. It
does not work. The calorimetry was wrong. They have developed nothing.
They do not have a product.

There is not a single published report of a positive result from Defkalion.
There is no reason to suppose they have anything.

He can thank DGT for all the knowledge and on the job training he got
 working with DGT for his acceptance into the LENR developer’s fray.

What does this mean? What did they teach him?

Maybe Gamberale was successful at looking under DGT’s dress for a leg up
 into the LENR marketplace . . .

Successful at what? They have nothing. They can get the same bogus 17 kW
with joule heater in a metal cylinder.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread Jed Rothwell

Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote:

The Gamberale report has a good dosis of ignorance in it (not fully degassed
 test with Argon give excess heat due to residual hydrogen) . . .


You can get the same result with a joule heater. They shut off the inlet
valve completely, making the flow rate zero. As in: nothing, bupkis, nada,
no water. The flow meter registered 1 liter per minute. That is a mistake.
It has nothing to with argon.


DGT will answer.


Oh give us a break, Peter. DGT has *never*, not *ONCE*, published a scrap
of experimental data. Not one graph, not one table of numbers. Not a single
observation or measurement. No one has ever published data showing a
positive result from this device. The only people I know who have seen it
in operation say it does not work. So what makes you think that after all
these years DGT will answer. They have never answered anything. If they
had positive data why didn't they publish it years ago?!?

You need to get back to reality. Unless these people publish actual data
from an independent test, you have no reason to believe any of their
claims. You and Kim hurt your own reputations when you go out on a limb
supporting Defkalion. Why should you? What do you owe them? Have they
secretly given you positive data? If they have, you and Defkalion should
cut the nonsense and publish it, *now*.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread Axil Axil

Anybody who tries to make a start in the LENR business deserves support
form LENR advocates for even  trying to succeed this difficult field.

Jed Rothwell: You and Kim hurt your own reputations when you go out on a
limb supporting Defkalion.



This situation is reversed for you and more pressing. Why go out on a limb
and discredit DGT. Is your opinion and objectivity worth only $1,400. One
way or another, the truth will be known before the end of this year.

As things are turning out, DGT made a big mistake to try and show
capability at  ICCF-18 to gain support from a prejudiced and irrevocably
non-supportive audience such as these LENR experts. Such gestures are not
useful in a audience that is so jealous. prejudiced and backbiting. I say
give any willing party the benefit of the doubt as long as they are trying.
The more parties that are willing to try increases the probability of
success in the end...even Gamberale.


On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Gamberale report has a good dosis of ignorance in it (not fully
 degassed
 test with Argon give excess heat due to residual hydrogen) . . .


 You can get the same result with a joule heater. They shut off the inlet
 valve completely, making the flow rate zero. As in: nothing, bupkis, nada,
 no water. The flow meter registered 1 liter per minute. That is a mistake.
 It has nothing to with argon.


 DGT will answer.


 Oh give us a break, Peter. DGT has *never*, not *ONCE*, published a scrap
 of experimental data. Not one graph, not one table of numbers. Not a single
 observation or measurement. No one has ever published data showing a
 positive result from this device. The only people I know who have seen it
 in operation say it does not work. So what makes you think that after all
 these years DGT will answer. They have never answered anything. If they
 had positive data why didn't they publish it years ago?!?

 You need to get back to reality. Unless these people publish actual data
 from an independent test, you have no reason to believe any of their
 claims. You and Kim hurt your own reputations when you go out on a limb
 supporting Defkalion. Why should you? What do you owe them? Have they
 secretly given you positive data? If they have, you and Defkalion should
 cut the nonsense and publish it, *now*.

 - Jed

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread James Bowery

Its pretty clear that Jed is attempting to hold DGT to the same standard as
Rossi et al.  Of course, the bar set by Rossi et al in terms of disclosure
is pretty low -- so I can see his frustration with DGT as reasonable.


On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 2:06 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

 Anybody who tries to make a start in the LENR business deserves support
 form LENR advocates for even  trying to succeed this difficult field.

 Jed Rothwell: You and Kim hurt your own reputations when you go out on a
 limb supporting Defkalion.



 This situation is reversed for you and more pressing. Why go out on a limb
 and discredit DGT. Is your opinion and objectivity worth only $1,400. One
 way or another, the truth will be known before the end of this year.

 As things are turning out, DGT made a big mistake to try and show
 capability at  ICCF-18 to gain support from a prejudiced and irrevocably
 non-supportive audience such as these LENR experts. Such gestures are not
 useful in a audience that is so jealous. prejudiced and backbiting. I say
 give any willing party the benefit of the doubt as long as they are trying.
 The more parties that are willing to try increases the probability of
 success in the end...even Gamberale.


 On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote:

 Peter Gluck peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote:

 The Gamberale report has a good dosis of ignorance in it (not fully
 degassed
 test with Argon give excess heat due to residual hydrogen) . . .


 You can get the same result with a joule heater. They shut off the inlet
 valve completely, making the flow rate zero. As in: nothing, bupkis, nada,
 no water. The flow meter registered 1 liter per minute. That is a mistake.
 It has nothing to with argon.


 DGT will answer.


 Oh give us a break, Peter. DGT has *never*, not *ONCE*, published a
 scrap of experimental data. Not one graph, not one table of numbers. Not a
 single observation or measurement. No one has ever published data showing a
 positive result from this device. The only people I know who have seen it
 in operation say it does not work. So what makes you think that after all
 these years DGT will answer. They have never answered anything. If they
 had positive data why didn't they publish it years ago?!?

 You need to get back to reality. Unless these people publish actual data
 from an independent test, you have no reason to believe any of their
 claims. You and Kim hurt your own reputations when you go out on a limb
 supporting Defkalion. Why should you? What do you owe them? Have they
 secretly given you positive data? If they have, you and Defkalion should
 cut the nonsense and publish it, *now*.

 - Jed

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread Jed Rothwell

Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote:

Anybody who tries to make a start in the LENR business deserves support
 form LENR advocates for even  trying to succeed this difficult field.


I do not think we should support a company that has never published any
data, and that cannot measure the difference between 0 L and 1 L/min.


This situation is reversed for you and more pressing. Why go out on a limb
 and discredit DGT. Is your opinion and objectivity worth only $1,400.


Don't be silly. You know that my opinion has nothing to do with the $1,400.
I have spent over a hundred thousand dollars on cold fusion experiments
without a single successful experiment to show for it. The $1,400 is a
small amount of money to me. However, it does prove that Defkalion is
either broke or they are deadbeats who do not pay their bills. They owe far
larger sums of money to other people.



 One way or another, the truth will be known before the end of this year.


The truth is irrefutable now! They cannot measure the difference between 0
and 1 L/min.

If there is some other truth -- such as independent confirmation of a
successful test -- let them publish it. For now, all we know about them is
that their calorimetry is wrong. No one here has any other information
about Defkalion. You don't; Peter does not; Prof. Kim does not. That is ALL
WE KNOW. If I am wrong about that, you should tell us what you know. Where
is a published paper from Defkalion describing an experiment?



 As things are turning out, DGT made a big mistake to try and show
 capability at  ICCF-18 to gain support from a prejudiced and irrevocably
 non-supportive audience such as these LENR experts.


They made a big mistake in calorimetry. They could easily gain support from
LENR experts if they would do the experiment correctly and publish their
results. Experts do not support people who make idiotic mistakes and
refuse to publish anything. Any expert who does that will destroy his own
reputation as an expert.

They invited several LENR experts, NI and NASA experts to look at the
experiment. The experts all said, that is not working. They told
Defkalion why it is not working. Defkalion did nothing to improve the
experiment. Heck, I told them specifically to confirm the flow rate with
stop watch and cylinder, and so did several other people. I told them that
a dozen times. They ignored me. They ignored everyone else. As far as I
know, they ignored all expert advice.



 Such gestures are not useful in a audience that is so jealous. prejudiced
 and backbiting.


You can't be serious! Do you really think it is jealousy and backbiting
to point out that when people measure a flow rate of 1 L/min when the flow
is actually zero, those people have made a gigantic mistake?!? What are we
supposed to do? Praise them? Agree with them that it is actually 1 L, and
there was actually 16 kW? Do you think loyalty and friendliness trump facts?

That's crazy. This is science, not a 3rd grade talent show. They do not get
a gold star for trying.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread Jed Rothwell

James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:

Its pretty clear that Jed is attempting to hold DGT to the same standard as
 Rossi et al.  Of course, the bar set by Rossi et al in terms of disclosure
 is pretty low -- so I can see his frustration with DGT as reasonable.


Rossi's has set the disclosure bar so low he would win a limbo contest.
Rossi has disclosed practically nothing. The quality of his tests ranged
from bad to ridiculous.

I believe Rossi because other people independently tested his devices and
confirmed the claims. Specifically, the people at Ampenergo, U. Bologna,
and ELFORSK. Several other people tested his devices and found they did not
work. If it were not for those independent tests, I would not believe one
word of Rossi's claims.

Defkalion has not published any results. Not one test. Not one graph. So we
have no basis to judge them. Except up until now I could sort of judge by
the rumors, and the stray comments by experts under NDA, who said the
gadget does not work. That is not much to go on, but it looked bad. Then I
heard their flow rate measurement was wrong. How wrong, I did not know, but
even Hadjichristos confirmed it was wrong.

Now, finally, we have a definitive result: the calorimetry is wrong.

Unless and until they publish some other result, it is case closed. They
have nothing.

Look, people make stupid mistakes. It happens. You have to forgive them.
What is not forgivable is when they hold out for years and they do not
admit they made a mistake. The paper from Gamberale shows that Defkalion
knew long ago they had made a mistake. (Or they knew he caught them
committing fraud, if that is what it was.) They should have published a
retraction on their web site saying: The ICCF18 demonstration was invalid
because the flow rate was measured incorrectly. We apologize for the
mistake. If they had done that, every expert in this field would forgive
them, as would I.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread Lennart Thornros

Of course it is kudos to Jed. Here some facts as I understand them:

1. I do not think Jed became a spokes person FOR DGT as they did not pay
him as agreed. Seldom can you win support by mistreating people. I think
that without knowing Jed (except from this sight) I can determine that he
would not first  publish a minor (money wise) dispute with DGT and then
make up a reason their result is not true. He would take an unnecessary
risk in doing so. Why not rather claim there result is false and discredit
them if he could. (He will not get any money anyhow). No, I think there is
no reason we have to make this in to a personal vendetta.
2. Is there different standards? No, of course not. I think, if they do not
swiftly defend an accusation saying there measurements are faulty, then
they have no defense Their results are faulty and their claims are
non-existing.
3. Thus my conclusion is; 'DGT does not play in the LENR development'.
Their result and methods does not warrant any comments.
4. Am I going to be wrong in December when they produce this rumored COP of
100? Not at all. Either they think they are fine being the only one on the
planet who knows something, which nobody knows but they do not want to
tell. Or they have found the way from having nothing today to something
viable in December. In the first scenario I think we can agree that they
have mislead everyone without comments (but with purpose) and thereby
losing credibility. In the second case they are among other unknown, who
have no comments.
My main point is, why kill the messenger?

BTW I think Rossi and the new investors are making a mistake not revealing
their plans. I do understand strategic reasons for not giving away details.
However, as we talk about a revolutionary product easy and cheap to
produce, why not tell the outlines for the future. I begin to wonder if
there is engineering problems, which prevents them from revealing their
marketing plans. This is how conspiracy rumors are born so just await them
rather than a frank statement saying;' This is where we are and here is a
problem we are working on. Then we will . . . . .'

Why so much secrecy? Why not frankly say how things are (not revealing
technical details)? This mystification pared with very sophisticated
discussions about nuclear physics and QM makes any investor leery to take
action.

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650

“Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM


On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote:

 James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:

 Its pretty clear that Jed is attempting to hold DGT to the same standard
 as Rossi et al.  Of course, the bar set by Rossi et al in terms of
 disclosure is pretty low -- so I can see his frustration with DGT as
 reasonable.


 Rossi's has set the disclosure bar so low he would win a limbo contest.
 Rossi has disclosed practically nothing. The quality of his tests ranged
 from bad to ridiculous.

  I believe Rossi because other people independently tested his devices
 and confirmed the claims. Specifically, the people at Ampenergo, U.
 Bologna, and ELFORSK. Several other people tested his devices and found
 they did not work. If it were not for those independent tests, I would not
 believe one word of Rossi's claims.

 Defkalion has not published any results. Not one test. Not one graph. So
 we have no basis to judge them. Except up until now I could sort of judge
 by the rumors, and the stray comments by experts under NDA, who said the
 gadget does not work. That is not much to go on, but it looked bad. Then I
 heard their flow rate measurement was wrong. How wrong, I did not know, but
 even Hadjichristos confirmed it was wrong.

 Now, finally, we have a definitive result: the calorimetry is wrong.

 Unless and until they publish some other result, it is case closed. They
 have nothing.

 Look, people make stupid mistakes. It happens. You have to forgive them.
 What is not forgivable is when they hold out for years and they do not
 admit they made a mistake. The paper from Gamberale shows that Defkalion
 knew long ago they had made a mistake. (Or they knew he caught them
 committing fraud, if that is what it was.) They should have published a
 retraction on their web site saying: The ICCF18 demonstration was invalid
 because the flow rate was measured incorrectly. We apologize for the
 mistake. If they had done that, every expert in this field would forgive
 them, as would I.

 - Jed

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread Alain Sepeda

They should have published a retraction on their web site saying: The
ICCF18 demonstration was invalid because the flow rate was measured
incorrectly. We apologize for the mistake. If they had done that, every
expert in this field would forgive them, as would I.

I support that position.


Shit happen (even some unforgivable acts), and admitting it is the only
option.
Anyway reading Mats book we see Rossi was not less stubborn about some of
his failures...
hopefully Elforsk was more stoneheaded than him and asked for a good test.

having the CTO admit the calorimetry is wrong, and the company refuse to
talk about it is really a governance problem. It happens often.

Now about MFMP proposal, I wait to touch it like St Thomas.
Suddenly all will be forgiven, if they deliver, like for Rossi.




2014-05-14 21:57 GMT+02:00 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com:

 James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:

 Its pretty clear that Jed is attempting to hold DGT to the same standard
 as Rossi et al.  Of course, the bar set by Rossi et al in terms of
 disclosure is pretty low -- so I can see his frustration with DGT as
 reasonable.


 Rossi's has set the disclosure bar so low he would win a limbo contest.
 Rossi has disclosed practically nothing. The quality of his tests ranged
 from bad to ridiculous.

  I believe Rossi because other people independently tested his devices
 and confirmed the claims. Specifically, the people at Ampenergo, U.
 Bologna, and ELFORSK. Several other people tested his devices and found
 they did not work. If it were not for those independent tests, I would not
 believe one word of Rossi's claims.

 Defkalion has not published any results. Not one test. Not one graph. So
 we have no basis to judge them. Except up until now I could sort of judge
 by the rumors, and the stray comments by experts under NDA, who said the
 gadget does not work. That is not much to go on, but it looked bad. Then I
 heard their flow rate measurement was wrong. How wrong, I did not know, but
 even Hadjichristos confirmed it was wrong.

 Now, finally, we have a definitive result: the calorimetry is wrong.

 Unless and until they publish some other result, it is case closed. They
 have nothing.

 Look, people make stupid mistakes. It happens. You have to forgive them.
 What is not forgivable is when they hold out for years and they do not
 admit they made a mistake. The paper from Gamberale shows that Defkalion
 knew long ago they had made a mistake. (Or they knew he caught them
 committing fraud, if that is what it was.) They should have published a
 retraction on their web site saying: The ICCF18 demonstration was invalid
 because the flow rate was measured incorrectly. We apologize for the
 mistake. If they had done that, every expert in this field would forgive
 them, as would I.

 - Jed

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread Terry Blanton

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 5:08 PM, Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com wrote:
 Of course it is kudos to Jed.

Malarkey!  Jed has not done anything but what we all should do and
that is be pragmatic.  Not only has DGT failed to present any valid
data, but they have lied through their teeth for years.  Don't we
remember their first forum where they claimed to have large numbers of
reactors being tested right after their breakup with AR.

I was helping Jed find components for a test that he was invited to
perform when they had nothing to test.  They made no steam; but, they
blew a lot of smoke.

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread David Roberson

I vividly recall the forum BS.  Many questions were asked concerning module 
testing which they insisted was happening within their lab.   Looking back now 
I realize that they were shamelessly lying.

MY was hard on them in the forum and now I apologize to him/her for thinking 
that he was out of line.  We must sharpen our pencils so that this does not 
occur again, or at least is much less likely.

DGT still can clear up their name with adequate proof, but I am not betting 
upon it at this time.  Blaze, what are the odds that they will come out of this 
intact?

Dave

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Wed, May 14, 2014 5:55 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed


On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 5:08 PM, Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com wrote:
 Of course it is kudos to Jed.

Malarkey!  Jed has not done anything but what we all should do and
that is be pragmatic.  Not only has DGT failed to present any valid
data, but they have lied through their teeth for years.  Don't we
remember their first forum where they claimed to have large numbers of
reactors being tested right after their breakup with AR.

I was helping Jed find components for a test that he was invited to
perform when they had nothing to test.  They made no steam; but, they
blew a lot of smoke.

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread Daniel Rocha

Suppose that I had a photo in which Kim was testing a reactor in DGT. Would
that make Jed's source untruthful?


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread Foks0904 .

Do you?


On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:35 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:


 Suppose that I had a photo in which Kim was testing a reactor in DGT.
 Would that make Jed's source untruthful?


 --
 Daniel Rocha - RJ
 danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread Daniel Rocha

My wife, sometimes to make a point, says: Everybody tells me that, and I
ask her who are those people. She answers: My mother and my sister.


2014-05-14 19:40 GMT-03:00 Foks0904 . foks0...@gmail.com:

 Do you?


 On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 6:35 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.comwrote:


 Suppose that I had a photo in which Kim was testing a reactor in DGT.
 Would that make Jed's source untruthful?


 --
 Daniel Rocha - RJ
 danieldi...@gmail.com





-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-14 Thread Jed Rothwell

Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote:



 Suppose that I had a photo in which Kim was testing a reactor in DGT.
 Would that make Jed's source untruthful?


It would probably make my sources misinformed, rather than untruthful.

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-13 Thread Jones Beene

From: Blaze Spinnaker 

I feel very bad for Dr. Kim, however.

 

You shouldn’t. Kim and others may not have been completely duped, and we must 
assume that although DGT could not show the type of gain which would allow 
massive funding, they still very likely have found an energy anomaly in the 
range of COP between 1 and 2. Everything Kim says could apply to a lower gain 
device, which is still beyond the Laws of Physics.

 

This range of overunity gain has been seen for 25 years, going back to 
Thermacore, and even at NASA (see the Niedra report) and MIT (by Haldeman, 
never acknowledged by the University). Yet with the advent of Rossi, it is no 
longer of interest to many funders.

 

The reality of the funding situation, given the large number of claimants in 
the LENR field is that a COP of greater than 1 but less than 2 is not going to 
generate A million dollar check, which was part of the flawed DGT business 
plan. In fact, they want $50 million per license LOL.

 

The open issue wrt DGT, and it is a huge technical issue which needs to be 
addressed, hopefully by Dr. Kim - is the large magnetic field, reported by DGT.

 

Jones

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-13 Thread Jed Rothwell

Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote:

Hats off to Jed.   I have to admit, in someways the Defkalion news is
 heartening in that it shows you are credible in your ability to accurate
 predict who is real and who isn't.  You've been warning us al about
 Defkalion for quite awhile.


I cannot take credit for this. I have no special insight. Soon after the
demonstration, I heard from various people that the flow rate may not have
been measured correctly. Questions were being raised about it, by experts
from NI and by others. John Hadjichristos himself acknowledged this. I
think he said the flow rate was inaccurate. He did not say they measured
a flow rate of zero as as 1 L/min. That is way beyond inaccurate.

As I recall, I heard the flow rate was too low for the rated capacity of
the flow meter. That is a common problem. As you see in the Gambarale
report, the rate was low, but the problem was a backflow.

I also heard they did not confirm the flow rate by another method, such as
collecting liquid water or sparging steam. That's a red flag.

I reported some of this here from time to time. I was not keeping it
secret. But I did not know the details, and I did not have a definitive
report such as Gambarale's.

Anyone who would do this test without independently checking the flow rate
is either deliberately deceptive or grossly incompetent. I am not going to
speculate which applies to Defkalion. Note that the people visiting Rossi
always did collect the flowing water to measure it. In one case they used a
carafe as I recall. That is inaccurate but the point is to do a reality
check, not to make an accurate measurement. If the flowmeter shows 1.16
L/min and you get some number between 0.9 and 1.3 you are good to go. If
you collect only 0.5 L, or you collect no water at all (or with steam
output you sparge the steam and the temperature of the water in your bucket
does not rise) then you know the flowmeter is not working. It is that
simple.



 If you were right about them, perhaps you are right about Rossi.

 Let's hope so.


I sure hope so. And we have good, objective reasons to think so. The tests
performed by Levi were pretty good. People say Levi is Rossi's friend. He
wasn't originally. They became friends *after* Levi confirmed the results.
So the friendship does not count.

The unpublished tests performed by Ampernergo were also pretty good. I
think ELFORSK's tests were excellent. The only weakness was in the input
power measurement. Last year they told me they would address this, and I
have heard they did. (That's the only thing I have heard about the present
tests.)

One other reason to have confidence in Rossi's tests -- crude as they are
-- is that they have often failed to show any excess heat. They were not
false positives. They were flat-out true negatives. Defkalion's test was a
false positive.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-13 Thread Alain Sepeda

whether they just have a modest COP and don't want to admit it because they
sold huge COP before is one thing...
having nothing seems hard to imagine, but pretending 10x more is possible
for desperate startup...

the claims of magnetic field seems exaggerated, but why claiming pure
imagined phenomenon?

anyway it is tragic for serious LENr actors, even if later Defkalion prove
his reactor.


2014-05-13 15:43 GMT+02:00 Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net:

   *From:* Blaze Spinnaker

 I feel very bad for Dr. Kim, however.



 You shouldn’t. Kim and others may not have been completely duped, and we
 must assume that although DGT could not show the type of gain which would
 allow massive funding, they still very likely have found an energy anomaly
 in the range of COP between 1 and 2. Everything Kim says could apply to a
 lower gain device, which is still beyond the Laws of Physics.



 This range of overunity gain has been seen for 25 years, going back to
 Thermacore, and even at NASA (see the Niedra report) and MIT (by Haldeman,
 never acknowledged by the University). Yet with the advent of Rossi, it is
 no longer of interest to many funders.



 The reality of the funding situation, given the large number of claimants
 in the LENR field is that a COP of greater than 1 but less than 2 is not
 going to generate A million dollar check, which was part of the flawed DGT
 business plan. In fact, they want $50 million per license LOL.



 The open issue wrt DGT, and it is a huge technical issue which needs to be
 addressed, hopefully by Dr. Kim - is the large magnetic field, reported by
 DGT.



 Jones

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-13 Thread Foks0904 .

I agree Alain. No one needs to pity Dr. Kim, I'm sure he (and others)
have measured something of relevance, just nothing commercially viable.
In regards to another point being stated explicitly or eluded to by others
on vortex since this story dropped, I think it is rather premature to call
fraud on DGT. That is a rather reactionary stance to take despite the
shadow of a doubt this new report casts on DGT. As you've just said, I have
a hard time believing all the data accumulated and/or publicized has been
fraudulent, but rather over-sold, which is different. If we all just begin
to villainize DGT this prematurely in a reactionary fashion, how are we any
better than fundamentalist skeptics? We have to be careful. I'm not saying
we need to be apologists for DGT by any stretch, but let's not get
indignant either. Rather lets give this a few months to play out and let
DGT respond before everyone goes crazy with accusations and innuendo. Just
my thoughts.

--- John


On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.comwrote:

 whether they just have a modest COP and don't want to admit it because
 they sold huge COP before is one thing...
 having nothing seems hard to imagine, but pretending 10x more is possible
 for desperate startup...

 the claims of magnetic field seems exaggerated, but why claiming pure
 imagined phenomenon?

 anyway it is tragic for serious LENr actors, even if later Defkalion prove
 his reactor.


 2014-05-13 15:43 GMT+02:00 Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net:

   *From:* Blaze Spinnaker

 I feel very bad for Dr. Kim, however.



 You shouldn’t. Kim and others may not have been completely duped, and we
 must assume that although DGT could not show the type of gain which would
 allow massive funding, they still very likely have found an energy anomaly
 in the range of COP between 1 and 2. Everything Kim says could apply to a
 lower gain device, which is still beyond the Laws of Physics.



 This range of overunity gain has been seen for 25 years, going back to
 Thermacore, and even at NASA (see the Niedra report) and MIT (by Haldeman,
 never acknowledged by the University). Yet with the advent of Rossi, it is
 no longer of interest to many funders.



 The reality of the funding situation, given the large number of claimants
 in the LENR field is that a COP of greater than 1 but less than 2 is not
 going to generate A million dollar check, which was part of the flawed DGT
 business plan. In fact, they want $50 million per license LOL.



 The open issue wrt DGT, and it is a huge technical issue which needs to
 be addressed, hopefully by Dr. Kim - is the large magnetic field, reported
 by DGT.



 Jones

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-13 Thread Daniel Rocha

You shouldn't to pity Dr. Kim!






-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-13 Thread Alain Sepeda

yes that is a capacity I developed with LENR.
Admit I need more data, and need suspend my judgement.

I wish all people that support DGT with more confidence to be right.

I have heard some possibilities/excuses... Bad degasing is one possibility
for the reactor not to work well... if not an measurement error, it may be
a last chance trick to avoid a pathetic failed demo...

What i cannot understand is not answering Luca's questions...

For that point I have report of possible justifications...

basically, I cannot rule-out it works a little, and why not , really...

I have contacted them and they answered like their web site... working on
the reactor, news this summer...

Given the scandal, if they have something that work, the best idea would be
to be antifragile, enjoy the buzz tempest and quickly prove it works with a
real 3rd party test, taking the risk to lose IP before their reputation is
ruined.


2014-05-13 17:57 GMT+02:00 Foks0904 . foks0...@gmail.com:

 I agree Alain. No one needs to pity Dr. Kim, I'm sure he (and others)
 have measured something of relevance, just nothing commercially viable.
 In regards to another point being stated explicitly or eluded to by others
 on vortex since this story dropped, I think it is rather premature to call
 fraud on DGT. That is a rather reactionary stance to take despite the
 shadow of a doubt this new report casts on DGT. As you've just said, I have
 a hard time believing all the data accumulated and/or publicized has been
 fraudulent, but rather over-sold, which is different. If we all just begin
 to villainize DGT this prematurely in a reactionary fashion, how are we any
 better than fundamentalist skeptics? We have to be careful. I'm not saying
 we need to be apologists for DGT by any stretch, but let's not get
 indignant either. Rather lets give this a few months to play out and let
 DGT respond before everyone goes crazy with accusations and innuendo. Just
 my thoughts.

 --- John


 On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.comwrote:

 whether they just have a modest COP and don't want to admit it because
 they sold huge COP before is one thing...
 having nothing seems hard to imagine, but pretending 10x more is possible
 for desperate startup...

 the claims of magnetic field seems exaggerated, but why claiming pure
 imagined phenomenon?

 anyway it is tragic for serious LENr actors, even if later Defkalion
 prove his reactor.


 2014-05-13 15:43 GMT+02:00 Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net:

   *From:* Blaze Spinnaker

 I feel very bad for Dr. Kim, however.



 You shouldn’t. Kim and others may not have been completely duped, and we
 must assume that although DGT could not show the type of gain which would
 allow massive funding, they still very likely have found an energy anomaly
 in the range of COP between 1 and 2. Everything Kim says could apply to a
 lower gain device, which is still beyond the Laws of Physics.



 This range of overunity gain has been seen for 25 years, going back to
 Thermacore, and even at NASA (see the Niedra report) and MIT (by Haldeman,
 never acknowledged by the University). Yet with the advent of Rossi, it is
 no longer of interest to many funders.



 The reality of the funding situation, given the large number of
 claimants in the LENR field is that a COP of greater than 1 but less than 2
 is not going to generate A million dollar check, which was part of the
 flawed DGT business plan. In fact, they want $50 million per license LOL.



 The open issue wrt DGT, and it is a huge technical issue which needs to
 be addressed, hopefully by Dr. Kim - is the large magnetic field, reported
 by DGT.



 Jones

Re: [Vo]:Kudos to Jed

2014-05-13 Thread Eric Walker

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Foks0904 . foks0...@gmail.com wrote:

We have to be careful.


Without regard to DGT, specifically, I think there is a recurring lesson
here.  In the LENR and free energy fields, more than any other fields I
have followed, there is a certain type of amped-up businessman who belongs
in a late-night infomercial but instead makes wacky claims somewhere on the
Internet.  Whether you would call what they're doing fraud or not probably
depends in part upon the mindset and intention of the people, if any, who
have given them money.  In this context it is something of a miracle that
Rossi's work has stood out as likely being genuine and have not simply
blended into the background.  The LENR researchers, too, on the whole, do
not fit this pattern, although some of them are obviously credulous.  A few
of them do appear to be infomercial salesmen as well.

Even when people seem credible and genuine, it is good to follow up and ask
for some data to support what they're saying.

Eric

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