Hi Cameron,
Always a good idea to turn of CSS and look at your page, or look at your
page in Lynx viewer (http://www.delorie.com/web/lynxview). These two method
will quickly give you feedback on whether the page has meaning without css.
If you look at the page, does each block of content have the
After asking everyone not to hijack a topic, it seems I have done the same.
Apologies all (especially Mike).
Rev Bob, I'd be very careful about Bobby. This has been discussed on-list a
few times, but here is a recap:
There are other accessibility tools that have better reputations than Bobby
An excellent 3D diagram of the box model:
http://www.hicksdesign.co.uk/journal/2004/05/3d_css_box_model/
Grey Box Methodology - Jason Santa Maria outlines an interesting beginning
process for websites.
http://www.jasonsantamaria.com/archive/2004/05/24/grey_box_method.php
Joe Clark - Bookmarks
Agree. A good guide is to look at the page with CSS switched off. Does it
still have meaning with some images missing? If images are decorative and in
the CSS, no meaning should be lost. The reverse is also true. Is the page
littered with unnecessary images that add no meaning?
A page with CSS
Hi Michael,
A few quick tests I always do on a page are:
1. check for scalability (increase font size a few times to see if it
breaks)
2. look at it without CSS
3. look in lynx
4. look in a range of browsers
5. look in print preview
The left nav fails badly in Mac/IE5, can send you screenshots
That was the abridged version. A more extensive list of check points would
include:
1. Quality of code
- Valid HTML?
- Valid CSS?
- Semantically correct code?
2. Degree of separation between content and presentation
- Full CSS?
- Decorative images in css?
3. Accessibility for users
- Scalable
ooops. Try 2004.
Dave Shea, Doug Bowman, Joe Clark and others. Sydney, September 2004
:)
russ
Original Message:
From: Lea de Groot [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Web essentials is now active!
Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 17:44:40 +1000
On Thu, 06 May 2004 17:21:30 +1000,
Wednesday 12 May
Guest Presenter: Tony Aslett (who built and runs, amongst other things, CSS Creator
and CSS Layout Generator)- should be very exciting!
Peter and I will now definately be flying up for the meeting, so we'll hopefully see a
lot of Brisbane WSG members on the night.
More info
Apologies for the radio silence from Peter and I on the WSG design competition.
We have had a couple of people request a time extension, so we have decided to allow
people to send us submisions until Sunday night - 9 May. We will then put the entires
online soon after for member voting.
Those
Anne talks about serving correct mime types, XHTML vs HTML and the pursuit of perfect
markup:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/features/anne-van-kesteren.cfm
Russ
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See
Jamie,
This is hard to answer as we cannot see your html. The class could be inside
or outside the 'a' element, which will affect the way you set up your
selector.
INSIDE THE 'A' ELEMENT
Assuming that your class was inside the 'a' element like this:
a href=# class=pootext here/a
The correct
Yes, they can be excluded. You can choose to use any of these pseudo-classes
or none of them. Up to you. You definitely do not have to specify them all.
Some would argue there is a usability issue with using the same link and
visited colour, but that is a separate discussion and not really within
Forgot to mention, 10% discount for WSG members!
James Robertson from StepTwo writes:
We would be happy to offer a 10% discount to WSG members
(please handwrite WSG member onto the bottom of the registration form).
Russ
There has been a lot of talk recently about how web standards are
Hi all,
1. the WSG design competition is still open, and all WSG members can take
part - there still time to enter. More info here:
http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/12.htm
2. Final reminder for the Sydney WSG meeting 15th April with special guest
David Woodbridge. RSVP's
The second edition of Eric Meyer's Cascading Style Sheets: The Definitive
Guide has hit the book shelves:
http://more.ericmeyeroncss.com/
Should I be transitional or Strict?
http://www.blogdsgn.com/index.php?id=P72
Playing with tables
For more info on these three types of style sheets (users, author and
browsers) go here:
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/selectutorial/advanced_cascade.htm
For a sample W3C recommended default style sheet for devices- go here:
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/sample.html
Russ
Hi all
In a few
You could always make any that you want for yourself with the buttonmaker:
http://kalsey.com/tools/buttonmaker/
Or if you prefer the manual approach:
http://www.sovavsiti.cz/css/w3c_buttons.html
HTH
Russ
Dear newsgroup,
this may be a bit off topic but I'm sure you can help me. I want to
http://www.webstandardsawards.com/previous/jason_santa_maria.html
A well deserved winner!
There is also a nomination at weekly standards, although Adam Howell seems
to have replaced his usual detailed analysis with comments like:
So, in closing. Tables are the work of Satan spawn hellfire. Light
Barb,
This is a bit hard to answer as I don't know if you are talking about a
standard list or a list with graphics.
I'll assume you men standard html lists...
Standard HTML lists have a certain amount of left-indentation. The amount
varies on each browser. Some browsers use padding (from
M weird. Is Browsercam branching out into new services?
Apologies all. I should have checked all screenshots before sending the
link. I will do so in future. :)
Russ
Geeze Russ, aren't you married?
http://www.browsercam.com/projects/56771/930830.jpg
--
Cameron Adams
W:
Gary,
Relative font sizes can also be done using percents as well as em's and this
solution is recommended by the CSS discuss wiki for font scaling under 100%
[1].
The Maxdesign site you mention is sadly in need of major restructuring and
recoding. I used to do navigation in pixels and all other
Hi SomeNewKid,
You could look through Ian Hickson's site [1] for browser tests, but without
a lot of pain you could do a simple test yourself.
1. Make an HTML page with full and correct doctype so you can be sure IE6
will render in standards complaint mode (if you do it in XHTML remember to
take
One method - not tested but in theory:
Place the content inside a container, and apply absolute positioning to the
container:
#contaner {position: absolute; left: 20px; bottom: 20px;}
The container will set at the bottom of the viewport or its containing box
and the content will flow up rather
Or gang-green?
people and put them off. How about a soothing blue or a clinical green?
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This thread has already been moved offlist to the discussion room:
http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/09.htm
Please do not continue this thread onlist
Russ
I agree Leo, programming takes a logical mind. Art takes a creative mind.
However there is a grey area, and I believe that
Accessibility checklist:
http://www.yourusabilityresource.com/2004/03/accessibility_c.html
Evaluating web site accessibility: seven steps
http://www.csun.edu/cod/conf/2004/proceedings/203.htm
March for web standards
http://hownow.brownpau.com/misc/m4west.html
Four new Zen Garden entries:
Hi all,
First of all there has been heaps of response to the David Woodbridge event
(15th April), both from Sydney people wanting to attend the event and from
members for other cities wanting access to the information.
1. For non-Sydney members:
We will audio and video tape the event. Both
Instead of one screenshot, how about 23 screenshots:
http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=55491
Click on the small screenshot to see full size versions.
Russ
Russ, I'll appreciate if you can send me a screen shoot, please... thank
you!
Too bad, I was hoping it could hold...
Any
Chris,
The tabs looks really nice but Tonico does have a point. If you strip out
all css styles, the links will appear in one line with very little between
them - making them hard to distinguish on older browsers, browsers that have
css switched off or text-based browsers..
Could you convert
with a list...
I will try, otherwise I can just use a nbsp; to spread it...
Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Http://www.neester.com
russ weakley wrote:
Chris,
The tabs looks really nice but Tonico does have a point. If you strip out
all css styles, the links will appear in one line with very
John,
Yes, there are slight differences in browsers, but these are easy to
overcome. There are a lot of un-needed classes in your code. The aim is to
use as few as possible, and use descendant selectors to do their work.
Theoretically, for this layout you should only need a few id's on the
Always exciting to see a WSG member getting a good wrap!
The Weekly Standard has given this weeks award to Jeff Lowder from
Accessibility 1st for his site - Young Achievement Australia. There is a
review of the site and also an interview with Jeff:
There is:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/resourcecat12.cfm
Feel free to add your own work to this section, as that is what it is for!
Russ
That's that only thing I could find in what is an aesthetically pleasing
design that is a credit to the WSG. Maybe it's time for a WSG Member's
BBC Broadcast goes full CSS:
http://www.bbcbroadcast.com/
New css layout resources:
http://intensivstation.ch/css/template.php
Eric Meyer on CSS, just a shiny new tool:
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/200403.html#d23t1304
Zeldman launches Happy Cog 3 - his company website revamped:
Razvan,
At present you are it! But hang in there...
Russ
Any users from Romania, beside me?
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Hi all,
This is a perfect thread for the discussion room:
http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/06.htm
Pop by, leave a comment, introduce yourselves to other Brisbane (and region)
people. Also, let us know if you want to get a meeting set up and we can get
it started.
Being the
Tom,
Please, as requested on several occasions, don't clog the list with admin
type requests, suggestions or comments as it adds to unnecessary traffic.
Instead, mail them directly to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thank you
Russ
individual message in the digest? That way one can just click on the
Font size is a hotly debated topic. At one extreme of the font size debate
are accessibility purists who believe that web designers and developers
should not touch default font size at all [1],[2], and at the other extreme
you have the pixel-perfect web designers setting absolute pixel sizes on
Hi Brian,
Hard to tell from the description - a mockup might help, but here is a page
that may be of benefit...
Dead Center:
http://www.wpdfd.com/editorial/thebox/deadcentre4.html
HTH
Russ
Hello,
I am trying to figure out how to do the following and am doing little more
than making my
To set your membership to digest mode simply email
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irrelevant) put the following words:
Set mode digest wsg
Be aware that our digest mode is not great! We are still working around
problems with our vendor - an ongoing battle.
Any questions
Hi Martin,
1. Coding methodology
---
I would recommend coding to standards, but checking across as many browsers
as possible throughout the process of building layouts. The keys are (a) use
as many browsers as possible, (b) check often and (c ) deal with layout
issues
.
Thanks
Russ
---
Russ Weakley
Max Design
Phone: (02) 9410 2521
Mobile: 0403 433 980
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.maxdesign.com.au
---
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Justin,
You make a lot of very good points.
However, a lot depends on the layout you are doing. For many layouts, I
don't think this should be necessary.
I generally do not run into major IE problems, or at least problems that are
not well documented (3 pixel jpg, box model, double margin,
We could probably argue this back and forward, but I feel very strongly that
there should be only one h1 on a page and it should be the page title. I
used to think it should be the site name but am moving away from that stance
now.
To use your example of 2 company founders - there would always
Try here:
http://snapshot.opera.com/mac/m750p3.html
Russ
Where can I get the Opera 7.5 Beta? Couldn't see an obvious link on
the site...
---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
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Hi Peters,
Welcome to the list. That is one of our aims here - to keep it informative
but also as friendly as possible. We have designers and developers with a
very wide range of skills and skill levels. But we are all in the same web
standards boat :)
The best quote on friendly attitude would
Hugh,
I don't mean to jump on this comment, so apologies if take out of context,
but the aim is to code for standards first, then deal with individual
browser issues as they come up. We should not need to code for Opera.
While they all have slight idiosyncrasies, recent versions of browsers
The next Sydney meeting has been moved back from the 8th to the 15th April
to avoid the Easter long weekend.
We have a special presenter for the night - David Woodbridge.
David works at the Royal Blind Society. His jobs is to evaluate client
websites from a blind perspective (yes, he is blind).
inspired Pat Collins to show us how
function and style can go together with lists replacing divs. Thans
again for the links. I really learned something today.
Leo
On Thursday, March 18, 2004, at 09:24 AM, russ weakley wrote
John,
Leo has already solved your problem, which is excellent, but it might be
worth reading this article - which explains the two main methods of
centering using CSS.
CSS Centering - fun for all:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/center/
Russ
I had to put the whole page into a table
If I could just cover my butt here... Patrick is correct!
The info I posted below is the RECOMMENDATION from W3C, but as we all know,
browsers interpret this stuff in their own way. So, it's always best to
assume the worst and take off margins if that is what you require - this
will fix the issue
These guys use the following CSS rule:
.hide {
height: 0;
width: 0;
overflow: hidden;
position: absolute;
}
HTML:
div class=hide
p
If you are reading this on a mobile device browser or a text browser, you
can safely
a href=#maincontent
skip to the content/a.
...
Russ
] : www.natecook.com :.
On Mar 17, 2004, at 8:17 AM, Jeremy Flint wrote:
you can also use
.hide {
display: none
}
div class=hideMessage to non-stylesheet browsers/div
russ weakley wrote:
These guys use the following CSS rule:
.hide {
height: 0;
width: 0;
overflow: hidden
I've been thinking about a post from a few days ago that has been bothering
me. The comments in this post highlight the difference between valid
markup and structurally-sound markup:
Question:
...you have the headings of these as h1s I'm not sure if you should have
more than one h1 a page? is
,
like Kevin Bacon in that really bad movie.
Another point to pick up on this discussion was seen with Peter's cinema
site - doing something like this will cause your message to appear in
search engine listings.
Cheers
James
russ weakley wrote:
Nate,
First of all, that wasn¹t my
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Russ
---
Russ Weakley
Max Design
Phone: (02) 9410 2521
Mobile: 0403 433 980
Email: [EMAIL
Although it is mentioned in our new guidelines, just a quick reminder...
Please, make sure you turn off Read Receipts. They cause all sorts of
problems for the WSG list. Peter, who is catching and filtering all our
error messages, has been hit with over 90 of them this morning.
Thanks
Russ
Although it is mentioned in our new guidelines, just a quick reminder...
Please, make sure you turn off Read Receipts. They cause all sorts of
problems for the WSG list. Peter, who is catching and filtering all our
error messages, has been hit with over 90 of them this morning.
Thanks
Russ
That is a loaded question... Depends on what level of browser you intend to
support. I'd install 7, 6 and 4.x, just so you can see how it operates, but
that is just me...
All browsers are available here:
http://browsers.evolt.org/
Russ
What's a good version of Netscape Navigator to check in?
A good point!
By set these values previously, Mark means set these values further up
the document tree.
For example, if you set font-weight: bold on a container (like a div
element), this will be inherited by elements within that container (like
content within a p element). In these particular
Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 - Working Draft
Published 11 March 2004
http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20040311/
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Maureen,
The main question would be this; do you want the logo to be included on the
page as essential content or do you see it as part of the presentation - if
it is the latter, then you are probably best off putting it inside the CSS
rather than on the page.
Once this decision is made, there
The first question you need to asks is what browsers you intend to support.
That will dictate many things, including the amount of shorthand css you
use. For example, if you are including NN4 as one of your target browsers,
this will limit the amount of shorthand CSS you can use.
Once you have
I agree we have split enough hairs for a while. We are really getting down
to personal opinion. Any further discussion is best done offlist.
Thanks
Russ
On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:56:37 -, P.H.Lauke wrote:
And how, in that case, is the use of UL bad ? Sure, UL is
generic, but it does get
Peter,
About browser warning messages...
About 8 months ago Peter (Firminger - listdad) and I took off all of our
browser warnings entirely.
The message is designed for older browsers (with significant political
reasons at the time it was developed) but it is a pain for other devices
that are
Option A is completely acceptable, and is actually very close to a W3C
example:
Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with
each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words.
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-list.html#edef_list_dt
Russ
Hi all,
Frank,
I completely agree with Tonico.
Many people getting into web standards assume that it is based on removing
tables. This is incorrect. There are times and places for tables. However,
one of the main aims of web standards is to make your content more
accessible to devices and users. This
There are heaps of articles on this, as well as answers on this list.
Try this:
http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/msg01324.html
Thanks
Russ
When preparing a proposal for a potential client or trying to convince
your management, what are the tried and true methods used
---
Russ Weakley
Max Design
Phone: (02) 9410 2521
Mobile: 0403 433 980
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.maxdesign.com.au
---
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Thanks
Russ
---
Russ Weakley
Max Design
Phone: (02) 9410 2521
Mobile: 0403 433 980
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http
Oops. That should be:
{ font-family : Georgia, Times, Times New Roman, serif; }
:(
Russ
{ font-family : Georgia, Times, Times New Roman, sans-serif; }
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Regarding accreditation, I reckon the best place to start is the Web
Accessibility Initiative (WAI) which produces (amongst other things) Web
Content Accessibility Guidelines.
These guidelines have include the all-important checkpoints that are broken
into three priorities. Ideally, web
Nate,
The term Colour blindness is now frowned on. Apparently colour
deficiency is the more correct term - for what it's worth. :)
Anyway, there are basically three types of colour deficiency. They are:
1. Deuteranope (a form of red/green colour deficit)
2. Protanope (another form of red/green
Is the indent 3 pixels wide? If so, it may be the 3 pixel text jog bug:
http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/threepxtest.html
If so, I would not recommend the hack suggest in the article. There are any
ways to work around the problem without hacks of any sort. On method would
be to simply
Andy is correct. Browsers all have their own default margin or padding that
must be removed if you want your content butting hard against the browser
window edges. B aware that different browsers use different methods. More
here:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/body/
Russ
Any ideas
Hi Nate,
Welcome to the list. Open critiques on this list are great - as long as
feedback is helpful rather than abrasive. :)
Criticism or praise?
How about some praise:
I have only looked at the front page but I think it's an excellent example
of a web standards based portal. The main page has
Some interesting comments already:
http://www.webstandardsawards.com/previous/aiga_atlanta.html#comments
The first comment is simply opinion on the design, but the second comment
mentions some good accessibility issues that should be considered.
Russ
Forget CSS Vault, I already awarded it on
Hi Ben,
There are two points of view about definition lists - one is a rigid
definition of definition lists (pardon the pun) and the other is more open.
The second point of view is actually supported by the W3C spec. This has
been discussed/argued about numerous times on the list. Rather than
Apologies to those who have already seen these...
Positioning and the Cascade
http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2004/03/04/positioning_/
A Recipe for Learning Web Design
http://www.digital-web.com/features/recipe_for_web_design.shtml
CSS and Wired - interview with Doug Bowman:
Oops. You're correct!
Maybe I should just let John quote himself! :)
Russ
Russ,
Perhaps this quote of John Allsop's should read, ...how much worse is
it to put *content* inside the CSS file?
-Hugh Todd :)
John Allsopp (one of the original CSS guru's) explains this better
than I
Hi Neerav,
Try this - just one method of centering images:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/imagecenter/
The two things you need to do (if you want to use this method) is set the
container (in this case the body) to centre (this overcomes the IE centering
bug) and the item (the image) with
Hi Jeff,
You need to add a declaration into the following rule set:
div#banner1
{
position: absolute;
top: 10px;
left: 10px;
padding-top: 75px;
height: 96px;
width: 260px;
background-image: url(../images/X_logo.gif);
}
Add this:
background-repeat: no-repeat;
Stops the image being tiles
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Thanks
Russ
---
Russ Weakley
Max Design
Phone: (02) 9410 2521
Mobile: 0403 433 980
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http
Hi Neerav,
Welcome to the group.
How late? Depends on what part of the meeting. The official end is around
9pm, but some members have been known to continue the meeting in the pub
afterwards till the early hours.
Russ
Hope to meet Sydney members at the next meeting, how late do they
usually
Side-stepping IE - a must-read recap of all IE's woes!
http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2004/02/25/sidestepping/index.php
Let¹s take a look at some of Internet Explorer for Windows¹ biggest CSS
deficiencies, and how you can use MOSe techniques or just plain old hacks to
get around these problems.
JG,
The gremlin is me, not the WSG system. A blackout last night reset my
machine's date and time to 1970 - didn't realise till after I sent it. Gotta
love macs. :)
Russ
Gremlins in the works or what chaps?
Check the date on this original message below.
Regards, JG
Date:
Thu, 01
Michael,
Haven't looked but it may be a simple Win/IE6 carriage return bug. It seems
that Win/IE is the only browser that renders carriage returns or line feeds
as whitespace directly before a closing containing element:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/mystery/
Two things to try if this
/
*
Thanks
Russ
---
Russ Weakley
Max Design
Phone: (02) 9410 2521
Mobile: 0403 433 980
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.maxdesign.com.au
Just a quick reminder about two upcoming WSG meetings:
SYDNEY WSG MEETING
Monday 23 February, 2004
Star City, Darling Harbour, Sydney
http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event6.cfm
Special guest - Sean Corfield (Macromedia standards guru)
MELBOURNE WSG MEETING
Monday 08 March, 2004
Student Union
Hi Jackie - read this earlier post:
http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/msg00841.html
Russ
Afternoon all...
Can someone please explain to me the benefits of the @import thing or point me
in the right direction to see why i should use it please.
Jackie Reid
Hi Chris,
The top image map works fine on the mac version of Firefox.
However, the page is not valid. No doctype, no character set, attribute are
not quoted, amperands not escaped:
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.australianliquidators.com/
Thanks
Russ
Hey Everyone,
I am
Ooops. My apologies for scaring you :)
Russ
Hey Russ,
Sorry you got the links the wrong way round...
www.australianliquidators.com http://www.australianliquidators.com is the
old website...
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1. Knowing too much
What I¹m talking about is the increasing need for web developers to know,
and be good at, widely different things. Common skill requirements include
graphic design, database development, JavaScript, HTML ,CSS ,XML ,
information architechture, usability, accessibility, writing,
A picture tells a thousand words:
http://www.browsercam.com/public.aspx?proj_id=44938
:)
Russ
Thanks in anticipation I managed to get it working across all my target
windows browsers. Now to move on to the mac anyone want to have a look in a
few Mac browsers and tell me the bad news? Go on
Replace padding: 1em 0; with padding: 0 1em; :)
Original Message:
From: russ weakley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: re: [WSG] Dodging CSS Hacks Tutorial
Date: Fri 13 Feb 2004 07:56:24 +1100
Hi Ryan,
Excellent article! Can I suggest a couple of small points:
Within
Hi Robert,
What you need to do is set the container (in your case the header div) to
position: relative, and then subscript to position: absolute - and
make it sit in the bottom right edge of the container. Like this:
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/jobs/css/moser.htm
No matter how it is scaled up
James,
Here is some info on ideal line length:
The ideal line length for text layout is based on the the physiology of the
human eye... At normal reading distance the arc of the visual field is only
a few inches - about the width of a well-designed column of text, or about
12 words per line.
Well done to Johan, Cameron and Andy for getting it up and running!
Andy has written more here:
http://www.andybudd.com/blog/archives/000154.html
Russ
If you remember Cameron (bloo man) posting something recently about
starting a standards awards, or even if you dont:
Dracos - Accessibility
A recent hobby of mine has been to take an inaccessible website and produce
a more accessible version that if necessary fetches information from the
original site to keep up to date.
http://www.dracos.co.uk/web/accessibility/
RNIB - Web Accessibility centre - a good place
Many places that have them but here is one from a WSG member:
http://jessey.net/simon/articles/009.html
Thanks Robert, I'll have a look at that and see.
As to the Doctype, I have to admit to being confused. I cut and pasted that
from the W3C site, and it validates.Is there a site
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