Hi all, I am totally agree with Fabien, but i would like to add some completion on what Fabien said. Is true.. i still feel that something has not been said. Even that is a lot of documentation available, and there is one nice tutorial (Jobeet) which is available for sf 1.3 and 1.4, the people still asking (on the list or on IRC) different things that are already in the documentation, and from here i can conclude just one thing: not all the people is reading the documentation before start asking around different things. I am not saying that the all documentation should be neglected, but i would suggest more than that. The members to help the core team more than they are doing it now. For example, there are around 1600 opened tickets to various symfony versions that are expecting a resolution from the core team. Of course, as Fabien pointed ... the day has only 24 hours ... If it would have 48, we would complaining the same situation.
I know that writing this i might "steal this topic", but, if we "all" would help a little bit by fixing the tickets there would give us an insight of the symfony core, and might help us to understand better some of the symfony parts. If you cannot fix (as in "i do know 0 symfony"), you could help other fix them by point them and also maybe providing functional / unit tests to replicate the issue / or provide patches for documentation typo and other small stuff. having a little number of tickets opened, symfony core may focus on the new version. Another way of helping, might be trying to do (a) "my first symfony project ", in which you can try provide the team and others users any problems encountered while you have developed the application. Making this, would help sfCore to "see" what else should be specified in the documentation. This way, (any of) you give back something to symfony framework. If Fabien wants and allows me, i could try to restart the "1Day1Ticket" project, but for that i would need some users that are willing to help. Regards, Alecs On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Fabien Potencier <fabien.potenc...@symfony-project.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm listening... but I needed some time to think about the topic a bit more > before answering. Here are my thoughts. > > But before I start "ranting" about the definitive guide, remember that all > the work done on symfony is benevolent. It's true for my work, but also for > the work of the many volunteers that help build the symfony community (all > the core team members, the translators, the great people answering questions > on the mailing-list, forum and IRC, people using symfony and spreading the > word about it in their companies, people blogging or tweeting about it, and > many more). But as days are only made of 24 hours unfortunately, we need > even more help. > > Please, read ALL the information contained in this email BEFORE replying ;) > > The symfony core team, some great authors, and the translation teams spent a > lot of time writing and translating documentation for the latest versions of > symfony. And as a matter of fact, the symfony 1.3/1.4 versions are probably > the most documented versions of symfony, ever. > > Want to get started with symfony? read the "Getting started" guide. > > Want to learn symfony step by step? read the "Practical symfony" book. > > Want to find everything about configuring symfony? Browse the "Reference > guide" book. > > Want to learn what changed in the recent versions? Read the "What's new?" > and "How to upgrade" tutorials. > > That's already a lot of documentation for beginners and advanced users. > > If you have a closer look, almost all the information found in the > Definitive guide is available in one form or another in another piece of > documentation I've just mentioned. > > But people keep asking me about the definitive guide. I don't really > understand why, perhaps because of the title, or because it was the first > available book. I really don't know... (ok, I'm lying a bit here) > > That said, I hear the complaints. And so, last week-end, I have re-read the > definitive guide cover to cover. > > From my point of view, here are the main pros of the definitive guide book: > > * More time is spent describing the philosophy of the framework in the > first two chapters (introduction to the MVC model, ...). > > * Each feature has its own chapter or section in the book. Looking for a > specific feature documentation is easier (in Practical symfony for instance, > it's more difficult to find things are they are described in the context of > an application creation). > > and the main cons: > > * Difficult to learn symfony with the definitive guide as there is not a > single example described from start to finish - only snippets of code are > shown (the Practical symfony book is better in that respect). > > * Slightly outdated best practices (the Ajax chapter for instance, globally > installing symfony with PEAR, and many other small things): the web evolves > fast and things that were true four years ago are not true anymore nowadays. > > * Far from being complete or definitive. A lot of things are just not > covered by the definitive guide (the mailer comes to my mind, but many other > things are not even mentioned). > > That said, the book is not that outdated. And for good reasons. The symfony > core team have spent a lot of time during the last few years updating its > content for each new version of symfony. So, it's mostly already up-to-date > for symfony 1.2. The good news is that symfony 1.3/1.4 is not that different > from symfony 1.2 either. > > So, today, I decided to spend some time to update the definitive guide for > symfony 1.3/1.4. The good news is that I have already updated most of the > book content. I still need to work on Chapter 3 and 8 before committing this > new version of the book, probably later this week (or even today if you give > me some encouragement ;)). > > The following chapters are more tricky to update as they need a lot more > work: > > * Chapter 8 - Inside The Model Layer: It only talks about Propel, and about > a slightly outdated version of it. We also probably need to add a similar > chapter for Doctrine. And the Propel vs Doctrine problem is also present in > a lot of other sections of the book. > > * Chapter 10 - Forms: This chapter must be rewritten from scratch to > describe the new form system. > > So, here is my proposal if you want to help us. > > As said before, I will update all the chapters, except 8 and 10. This > version will be made available as a starting point for a more collaborative > approach to the update. From there, if people want to give a hand at > updating the book, please subscribe to the symfony documentation > mailing-list (http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-docs), where we will > coordinate the efforts (I cross-post this to the doc ml). > > You don't need to be symfony fluent to help updating the book. We need > people for a lot of different tasks: > > * help proof-read the modifications > * test snippet of code with symfony 1.3/1.4 > * spot missing things > * spot things that are not true anymore > * ... > > Fabien > > -- > Fabien Potencier > Sensio CEO - symfony lead developer > sensiolabs.com | symfony-project.org | fabien.potencier.org > Tél: +33 1 40 99 80 80 > > On 1/25/10 2:01 PM, Massimiliano Arione wrote: >> >> The question arose many times, but unfortunately there's no solution >> for now. >> Once I also asked if we can translate the book, since we already did >> it for the 1.0/1.1 version (it's in the wiki), but Fabien replied >> negatively. >> I think the book it's not in the plans of documentation anymore, maybe >> for "political" reasons? Of course, only Fabien can reply. >> I saw many moans in symfony forum about that.... I think we should do >> a collective effort to take this problem to attention of core team: we >> can keep to write here, but also write in forum and in the >> documentation group >> >> Massimiliano >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "symfony users" group. > To post to this group, send email to symfony-us...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en. > > -- Have a nice day! Alecs As programmers create bigger & better idiot proof programs, so the universe creates bigger & better idiots! I am on web: http://www.alecslupu.ro/ I am on twitter: http://twitter.com/alecslupu I am on linkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/alecslupu Tel: (+4)0722 621 280 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. 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