The situation with Crimea is not clear-cut. It is kind of complicated.
For instance, the climate in Crimea is very dry, that is why the water
from the river Dnieper had been transferred to Crimea by an immense
artificial North Crimean Canal [1]. Now the Dnieper water is not sold to
Crimea any more.
The newspaper Le Monde named Rana Dasgupta one of 70 people who are
making the world of tomorrow [2]. Speaking figuratively, an electrician
may work with wires without knowing Maxwell's equations or Ohm's law
formulas. Still, it is better that he has some notion of the theory of
electromagnetism.
The same is here. We try to discuss border dispute between the nation
states. I just recommended to read an article [3] of the well known
essayist and thinker about the nation state evolution as a political,
economical, and philosophical concept. It will not solve this dispute,
but at least, its nature could be better understood.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Crimean_Canal
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rana_Dasgupta
[3]
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/05/demise-of-the-nation-state-rana-dasgupta
Best regards,
Oleksiy
On 22.10.18 15:25, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
Can you summarize parts of this article (5k+ words, in "long read"
section) that are relevant to
tagging of Russian and Ukrainian border in the Crimea?
22. Oct 2018 00:44 by oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch
<mailto:oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch>:
Hi Martin,
Before continuing this discussion further, I would advise to read
the amazing article "The demise of the nation state" by Rana
Dasgupta available via this link:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/apr/05/demise-of-the-nation-state-rana-dasgupta
The issue of national state boundaries is more profound and
ubiquitous than it may seem at first sight. This topic is
controversial and complicated, and Rana Dasgupta's analyses
provides some good starting-point insights.
Best regards,
Oleksiy
On 21.10.18 16:12, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
Dear all,
we all know how sensible the topic of disputed boundaries can
be (they are not necessarily a big problem, many boundary
disputes like between Italy and France about the summit of
Mont Blanc / Monte Bianco, have little bearing on the actual
life of people).
Therefore we can all be satisfied there is clear guidance from
the board how to deal with this: the local situation
determines how we map, and the OSMF is explicit here:
“National borders are particularly sensitive. Currently, we
record one set that, in OpenStreetMap contributor opinion, is
most widely internationally recognised and best meets
realities on the ground, generally meaning physical control.”
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.
<https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/w/images/d/d8/DisputedTerritoriesInformation.pdf>pdf
When I recently looked at Crimea I noticed it is still part of
the Ucraine in OSM: https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/60199
As many might know, the current boundary situation for Crimea
was frozen 4 years ago “for a short time” by the DWG and so I
asked them about their current position 2 months ago, and
after I got no reply, tried to remind them 5 weeks ago, but
have not yet gotten any reply, so I am now opening this thread
here.
IMHO, for consistency and credibility, we should either
recognize that Russia is actually controlling Crimea, or we
should update the disputed borders information. As I believe
the general concept of ground truth for admin boundaries was a
good idea, I would tend to the former.
I also believe the actual situation has already been ignored
for too long. When the thing is still dynamic or/and we’re in
the middle of a conflict it can be wise to step back and see
for some time how things are evolving, but 4 years are a lot
of time, something like one year would seem more reasonable.
What do you think?
Cheers, Martin
sent from a phone
Begin forwarded message:
*From:* Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdre...@gmail.com
<mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>>
*Date:* 20. August 2018 at 10:42:33 CEST
*To:* d...@osmfoundation.org <mailto:d...@osmfoundation.org>
*Subject:* *DWG policy on Crimea*
Dear members of the DWG,
as of this question in the help forum:
https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/65436/what-is-the-current-position-of-the-dataworkinggroup-on-crimea
I kindly invite you to reconsider and eventually update
your position on the situation in Crimea.
As you have stated in 2014, this should not be the long
term way to deal with the situation, and short term is
probably coming to an end. There is clear guidance by the
OSMF board how to deal with disputed boundaries (as the
situation seems to be more stable than some would have liked).
My motivation is not promoting the Russian point of view,
but to act predictably and consistent wrt sensible topics.
Thank you,
cheers,
Martin
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