Glenn wrote: > Works nullify grace in salvation.Rom. 4:4-5; > Rom. 11:6.
You are misusing these verses. Neither of these verses say that works nullify grace. "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Rom 4:4-5) This passage clearly says that a man is justified without works, by faith. That is not the same thing as saying that works nullify grace. "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Rom 11:5-6) This passage says that election is not of works, but of grace. It does not say that works nullify grace. The truth is that there is no passage in the Bible that says that works nullify grace. Such a teaching is false and unBiblical. Glenn wrote: > Works and salvation are not the same. I agree. Glenn wrote: > If one is depending upon his perfection of works > for salvation then that nullifies grace. I agree. As I said before, trusting in works nullifies grace, but works themselves are a fruit of faith and do not nullify grace. Glenn wrote: > The verses you are using you are misusing. David Miller wrote: > No, I am not misusing them. Read the whole > epistle of 1 John and believe it. Glenn wrote: > 1 John is about gnosticism, if I understand it. I don't believe that, but even if the gnostics did appear prior to the second century, what is your statement supposed to mean? Does that mean we don't need to read it? Does that mean it does not apply to us today? Does that mean the teachings are tainted or not part of God's Word? Why would you react to my urging you to read 1 John and believe it with the statement of, "1 John is about gnosticism"? Glenn wrote: > Agreed, we OUGHT to but I have never met a person > on TT or in person who does so perfectly. NEVER. But you would never know if you had if you yourself have sin in your life. What criteria do you use to judge such matters, whether or not they do what you would do in certain situations? I do not judge whether others are perfect, so I could never make the statement, "I have never met such a person." Neither do I judge myself, so I could never say, "I am perfect." What I do know is what God says about the matter, and he says that some men are perfect. I believe God and the Bible on this matter over what you say. No offense intended, but that is what you say to the Mormons, so I think you can understand it when I say it to you about this subject. Glenn wrote: > And we DO live perfectly from time to time, I'm glad to see you recognize that! This is a great foundation, because many Christians say they sin in thought and deed many times every day. Glenn wrote: > but not perfectly ALL the time. I have yet > to meet a person who never sinned after > he was saved. Go by what God says in the Bible rather than your lack of experience in meeting a perfect person. David Miller wrote: > What verses in the Bible do you use to support > your teaching that nobody is perfect like Jesus is > perfect? Glenn wrote: > I gave many verses in the true/false test. You gave verses, but not one of them said that God does not consider anyone perfect. Job 1:1 reveals that God considered Job perfect. Glenn wrote: > Now the reason I say, no one is without sin because sin > is much more than not stealing, cheating, etc., to sin. I agree that sin is much more than that. Sin is whenever you do not walk in love. Sin is: Transgression 1 John 3:4 Unrighteousness 1 John 5:17 Omission of known duty James 4:17 What is not of faith Rom. 6:23 Thought of foolishness Prov. 24:9 Right. I agree. Glenn wrote: > Again, David no lives in perfect peace, perfect love, > perfect faith. That is perfection. That does not exist > except in Jesus Christ. Now you are using the term differently than how I use the term perfect. As I said before, the Bible has two uses of the word perfect. One sense is in the way of being complete with no room to grow. I would agree wholeheartedly that nobody on earth is perfect in this sense. Neither was Jesus when he was in the flesh, perfect in this sense. However, another use of the term is to indicate that someone is walking holy and without sin, and doing all that God expects of him for his level of maturity. That is the sense in which I say that Christians can be perfect. Glenn wrote: > Question: What denomination teaches this > "I am perfect" doctrine? Or what group of > Christians teach this or used to teach this? John Wesley, who founded Methodism, taught Christian Perfection. My belief about Christian perfetion is very similar to his. Charles Finney of the Presbyterians also taught it. Glenn wrote: > Are you perfect? This question is a temptation and snare to those who walk in perfection. I can only answer as Job answered: "If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse." (Job 9:20) If I were to say that I was perfect, I would immediately fall from that perfection and make the confession false. It is contrary to the doctrine of Christ for us not to walk humbly. The one who can judge if I walk in Christian perfection is God, and I leave all such judgment to him. All I know, is that the Bible teaches us to walk pure and holy, without sin, and I conduct myself to have a clear conscience before God and men in all matters. I am always open to correction, and I realize that I can slip into error, except by the grace of God I am kept from it. I am quick to hear my brothers and sisters if they have correction for me, but the Word of God is the ultimate arbitrator of all matters. I do not consider myself to have arrived, but rather I press forward continually, perfecting holiness in the sight of God, with hope for that ultimate perfection that is found in the resurrection. Peace be with you. David Miller. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.