Re: [TruthTalk] Whose Names are Written in the Lambs Book of Life?

[Bill Taylor]

Judy wrote  >  I have no idea what you are talking about Bill. First you might define what you mean by "hermeneutical criteria" and then tell me how I hold your feet to the fire and excuse myself, because to me this is nothing but an unfounded accusation.  You say there is no such thing as "spiritual death".  I say there is and it is right under your nose in the book of Genesis.  Why not deal with the facts?  Just throwing out accusation solves nothing.   The hermeneutical criteria that I am questioning is the criteria of interpretation that you use against others but are unwilling to apply to yourself. Let me state it in different words. At the beginning of our debate over the Sonship of Christ, you sent a series of posts stating that no where in Scripture are the words "eternal Son" used. You therefore used that to draw the conclusion that the Son of God was not the eternal Son of God. Do you remember this, or would you like me to dig up those posts? Judy, the words "spiritual death" do not appear in Scripture. The concept of spiritual death is a theological construct that you and many others have built, based upon less than explicit statements in the Bible. This in itself is not a bad this, if in fact the Bible does set forth this doctrine in its non-specific language. I do not believe it does that. If in Genesis God had said, On the day you eat of it, you will surely die a spiritual death, then I would have no recourse to argue against your concept of spiritual death. But God did not say that; he said "On the day you eat of it, you will surely die." There is nothing explicit about that death, no mention as to how they would die or what kind of death that it would be, just that they would die. I believe that rather than allowing them to die on that day, God substituted his own Son on their behalf. This does not mean that the Son died on that day (although he is called the Lamb slain from the foundation or beginning of the world), but it does mean that the Son's fait was sealed on that day. Immediately after the fall, God promised the Woman that to her a Seed would be born and that that Seed would be bruised (in other words, die on a cross, but in resurrection change the nature of death for ever and everyone) but that in so doing he would crush the deceiver's head (and this is forever). Therefore, I do have a very plausible explanation, which does not employ your extra-biblical term: "spiritual death." Why if you are unwilling to accept the eternal Son teaching, and this because it is not a biblical term, are you now willing to continue to uphold the "spiritual death" doctrine, when it too is not a biblical term? This is the hermeneutical criteria that I am questioning: a criteria of interpretation that you will use against others but are unwilling to apply to yourself.     Sincerely,   Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 12:49 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Whose Names are Written in the Lambs Book of Life? I have no idea what you are talking about Bill. First you might define what you mean by "hermeneutical criteria" and then tell me how I hold your feet to the fire and excuse myself, because to me this is nothing but an unfounded accusation.  You say there is no such thing as "spiritual death".  I say there is and it is right under your nose in the book of Genesis.  Why not deal with the facts?  Just throwing out accusation solves nothing.   On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:43:31 -0700 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Peace to you, Judy. We have been down this road before. I was just checking to see if you had the integrity to hold your own feet to the fire by employing the same hermeneutical criteria toward yourself that you do against those whose beliefs differ from your own. No surprises here, you don't.  Bill On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:27:04 -0700 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: O poor poor John,   If it will make you feel better, I will go so far as to say that there is no explicit scriptural support for the idea of "spiritual death." This idea came to us via the wake of the Augustine-v-Palagius controversy.   Not so Bill, the book of Genesis was written way before the Augustine v Pelagius controversy and this is where the idea of "spiritual death" comes from.  God said "In the day A&E ate they would SURELY die"  Are you saying He lied and they didn't die that day?   In fact I also know that Judy, if she is going to be consistent, will have to agree with me on this one, although on different grounds; and this because she is so insistent on pointing out that since there is no explicit language stating that Jesus is the "eternal Son," he therefore cannot be the eternal Son. To use her line of argumentation (against her, in this instance:>) there cannot be any such thing as "spiritual death" since there is no such explicit language in Scripture.   Do you need everything spelled out for you Bill? Just how did they die THAT DAY - Adam did not die physically until 960yrs later?   Even though we do not all affirm your view concerning a lack of a fallen nature, there are at least a couple of us who will affirm the absence of a concept of "spiritual death" in the biblical narrative.   Now, does that make you feel better? Bill   I sure hope not because a false peace is much worse than no peace.  judyt     From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 6:48 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Whose Names are Written in the Lambs Book of Life? In a message dated 1/10/2005 11:55:01 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: Unscriptural John.  How did he get born saved since everyone is born into a "fallen creation" (sin) in the first Adam. The scriptures teach that God saw us in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) and everyone's name was written in the Lamb's Book of Life at the beginning because Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. However, this does not negate the fall nor does it insure salvation unless one keeps their name from being blotted out.  The soul that sinneth, it shall die. Is an eternal truth So rather than get so tangled up with saved, not saved, saved, not saved. Wouldn't we be wiser to learn what God call's sin and stop doing it?   I stand alone on this "fallen nature thing, "  I know.   The write - wongers  (nothing wrong with being a write winger   ----------   and no, I did not misspell.   A right winger who joins a list such as this truly is, becomes a write winger   ---------------    thank you very much) start bouncing and my friends, out of respect no doubt, become painfully  silent   ( know exactly what that means !!    you can't fool little old Johnny)  Oh, by the way,  A left winger who joins a list such as this truly is becomes a TEACHER.   he ha. But I digress.   Judy  --   there is no fallen nature.  God just isn't done with us yet.  Adam and his Seventh Rib are completed by the same Christ you and I are.   It has ALWAYS been that way, since before the foundations of the world.   The soul that sinneth, it shall die. Is an eternal truth So rather than get so tangled up with saved, not saved, saved, not saved. Wouldn't we be wiser to learn what God call's sin and stop doing it?    Judy  !!!!   The soul that sinneth, it shall die  --   is not a true statement for those who are in Christ.   We will be saved  --   signed sealed and delivered per Roimans 8.   Get used to it, Judy.   You ARE going to heaven.    So am I.   I just hope we don't live on the same block, ya know what I am saying ??