Well, I guess we can argue about what we mean by "proven" here. I agree
that the ultimate test of the worthiness of a solution is a successful and
significant field deployment. However, achieving that level of
interoperability certainly proves the solution with regard to the original
requirements.

Robert

On 11 November 2015 at 22:34, Paul Duffy <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 11/7/2015 10:40 AM, Robert Cragie wrote:
>
> Paul,
>
> Whatever the state of ZigBee IP, it doesn't alter the fact that it
> successfully completed after an extensive specification, implementation and
> test program, demonstrating interoperability across 7 independent
> platforms,
>
>
> Agreed.
>
> so the solution is certainly proven.
>
>
> There is no way I would designate a solution as proven w/o a significant
> field deployment.
>
>
> Robert
> On 5 Nov 2015 16:23, "Paul Duffy" < <[email protected]>[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Re: PANA traction in the market.
>>
>> AFAIK Zigbee IP has no deployed footprint and none are pending.
>>
>> Wi-SUN consists of several profiles.  EchoNet and Field Area Network
>> being prominent.  FAN is using 802.1X / EAP-TLS.
>>
>>
>> On 11/3/2015 2:52 AM, Alper Yegin wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Malisa,
>>>
>>> On Oct 31, 2015, at 11:10 PM, Malisa Vucinic wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks for the clarification. We are trying to maximize code reuse
>>>>
>>> Then please note that PANA is RFC, has multiple implementations, adopted
>>> by other standards (Zigbee and Wi-Sun), and already getting deployed
>>> (Wi-Sun).
>>>
>>>
>>> and minimize number of exchanges. In Q17 I see that Client Initiation
>>>> message is omitted if network can detect on its own the presence of JN,
>>>> which is not the case in 6tisch.
>>>>
>>> OK.
>>> Note that, though, any solution you'd have would need to have the
>>> equivalent of that one message where the client says "hello, let's start
>>> auth".
>>>
>>>
>>> I suppose that we are then left with EAP overhead plus an extra
>>>> discovery message.
>>>>
>>>> I see the EAP overhead is being debated already.
>>> But like I said above, discovery message needs to be supported by any
>>> other solution as well, hence I don't think it's extra for "EAP/PANA"
>>>
>>> Alper
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>> MaliĊĦa
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 31 Oct 2015, at 22:43, Alper Yegin < <[email protected]>
>>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
>>>>> I've read the thread. I see there are some PANA-related questions. Let
>>>>> me clarify them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like Rafa said, PANA is already adopted and fully defined by Zigbee
>>>>> IP. Hence I'd expect it's ready to be used for 6tisch as well. Are there
>>>>> anything special here in 6tisch that'd make a difference with respect to
>>>>> network access authentication and key management?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> PANA assumes the JN has an IP address. That IP address can be a
>>>>> link-local IP address.
>>>>> (Not sure if this work really needs a solution that operates before
>>>>> *any* IP address is configured on the JN. But if it does, then here's an
>>>>> expired work on that front:
>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yegin-pana-unspecified-addr-06)
>>>>>
>>>>> - Traffic load: minimum 4 messages for PANA + [ 5 messages for
>>>>>> EAP-AKA, 15+ messages for EAP-TLS ] + 1 packet to provision K2
>>>>>>
>>>>> Not sure where that "4 messages" come from. It can be "0". See Q16 and
>>>>> Q17 in http://www.panasec.org/docs/PANA-FAQ.txt.
>>>>> Also that last 1 packet is not needed either. The last packet sent
>>>>> from the authenticator can deliver that payload.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think a separate KMP is needed when we use PANA.
>>>>> Because:
>>>>> - EAP/PANA authentication generates PANA SA between the JCE and JN.
>>>>> Which can used for further key derivation. Given the PANA is extensible
>>>>> thru AVPs, additional parameters can be delivered between the end-points 
>>>>> if
>>>>> necessary.
>>>>> - RFC 6786 defines how PANA can carry encrypted payloads, which can be
>>>>> used for delivering keys.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope these help.
>>>>>
>>>>> Alper
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> 6tisch mailing list
>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/6tisch
>>>>>
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