placeholder-text is fine with me. On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 12:02 AM, Alexander Surkov < [email protected]> wrote:
> Joanie suggested [1] to use 'placeholder-text' name to keep IAccessible2 > and ATK closer. Are there objections? > > Having, placeholder for IA2 and placeholder-text for ATK could make life > harder for implementators, at least it definitely will do in Firefox case. > > [1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1303429 > > On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, James Teh <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Visually, placeholder is certainly more like a value than a >> name/description. However, arguably, it is semantically different to a >> value in that it's more of a hint for the user as to what to enter there. >> The reason for the name mapping was partially because it's a nice fallback: >> having no label at all is probably an authoring error, so it's reasonable >> to fall back to placeholder. >> >> I think I originally supported the description idea, but on further >> reflection, I'm not so sure this isn't going to cause problems. It just >> occurred to me that if an author sets title or aria-describedby, that will >> get mapped to description, thus killing the placeholder. So, we definitely >> need to expose the placeholder attribute. However, once we have that (plus >> AT support), we then always have to compare description with placeholder >> "just in case", which is pretty ugly. Name is different because while no >> name is probably authoring error, no description certainly isn't. >> >> In short, I'd like to propose that we: >> 1. Expose the placeholder attribute; >> 2. Keep the current behaviour of falling back to placeholder for name as >> a last resort; >> 3. When 1) happens, expose explicit-name:false; >> 4. Don't ever fall back to placeholder for description. >> >> Jamie >> >> >> On 15/09/2016 2:38 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote: >> >> Jamie, do you have objections? >> >> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Brett Lewis <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I have always thought of the placeholder more like a value for the edit >>> field rather than a name or description. >>> >>> However, I think the important thing is that we have a mechanism that >>> allows assistive technology to “know” that the place holder is present and >>> what the value of the placeholder is. >>> >>> Your suggestions accomplish that. >>> >>> Brett >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Brett Lewis* >>> >>> *VFO* | Software Engineer >>> >>> 11800 31st Court North, St. Petersburg, FL 33716 >>> >>> *T* 727-299-6270 >>> >>> [email protected] >>> >>> www.vfo-group.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Alexander Surkov [mailto:[email protected]] >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 13, 2016 1:52 PM >>> *To:* Brett Lewis <[email protected]>; James Teh <[email protected]> >>> *Cc:* [email protected] >>> *Subject:* Re: [Accessibility-ia2] HTML placeholder attribute >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi, Brett and all. >>> >>> There's some discrepancy in the specs between UIA and IAccessible2 >>> mappings. UIA column states [1] that HTML placeholder is mapped to >>> accessible name and description, while IAccessible2 column says HTML >>> placeholder has same mapping as aria-placeholder. aria-placeholder is >>> exposed it in AriaProperties [2] for UIA and as object attribute for >>> IAccessible2, the generic name computation doesn't mention aria-placeholder >>> [3]. >>> >>> Leaving aside the specs, in case of IAccessible2 Firefox does similar >>> things to UIA. Iirc we agreed [4] to expose placeholder as >>> name/description, because it requires zero adoption efforts from AT, and >>> since nobody claimed they need semantics of placeholder. >>> >>> If semantics loss is crucial for you, then I think we could fix it by >>> exposing HTML placeholder this way: >>> >>> * name and description as Firefox does (fix the spec to make it clear) >>> >>> * expose placeholder object attribute >>> >>> * do not expose explicit-name='true' object attribute if placeholder was >>> used as name >>> >>> >>> >>> aria-placeholder may be left with the current mapping. How does it sound? >>> >>> >>> [1] https://w3c.github.io/aria/html-aam/html-aam.html >>> [2] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html >>> [3] https://w3c.github.io/aria/accname-aam/accname-aam.html >>> [4] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Brett Lewis <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Hi All: >>> >>> I have been looking at how the HTML placeholder attribute is supported >>> by IA2. >>> >>> According to the HTML accessibility API mappings at: >>> https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aam-1.0/ >>> >>> The placeholder in HTML should be handled just like the >>> aria-placeholder. >>> >>> According to the core api accessibility mappings >>> http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html >>> >>> The aria-placeholder is mapped to an Ia2 object attribute of placeholder. >>> >>> So, it sounds like the HTML placeholder should be mapped to an IA2 >>> object attribute of placeholder. >>> >>> Currently Firefox seems to support the placeholder as the name of the >>> field if there is no other name provided by the page author (from >>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817. >>> >>> This seems to contradict the description of aria-placeholder from >>> >>> the WAI-ARIA) 1.1 spec at http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mas >>> ter/aria/aria.html#aria-placeholder >>> >>> Says: >>> >>> >>> >>> “[ARIA 1.1] Defines a short hint (a word or short phrase) intended to >>> aid the user with data entry when the control has no value. A hint could be >>> a sample value or a brief description of the expected format. >>> >>> >>> >>> Authors should not use aria-placeholder >>> >>> instead of a label as their purposes are different: The label indicates >>> what kind of information is expected. The placeholder text is a hint about >>> the >>> >>> expected value. See related aria-labelledby and aria-label. >>> >>> >>> >>> Authors should present this hint to the user by displaying the hint text >>> at any time the control's value is the empty string. This includes cases >>> where >>> >>> the control first receives focus, and when users remove a >>> previously-entered value. >>> >>> >>> >>> NOTE >>> >>> >>> >>> As is the case with the related HTML placeholder >>> >>> attribute, use of placeholder text as a replacement for a displayed >>> label can reduce the accessibility and usability of the control for a range >>> of users >>> >>> including older users and users with cognitive, mobility, fine motor >>> skill or vision impairments. While the hint given by the control's label is >>> shown >>> >>> at all times, the short hint given in the placeholder attribute is only >>> shown before the user enters a value. Furthermore, placeholder text may be >>> mistaken for a pre-filled value, and as commonly implemented the default >>> color of the placeholder text provides insufficient contrast and the lack >>> of a separate visible label reduces the size of the hit region available >>> for setting focus on the control.” >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I am suggesting that we all agree to present the HTML placeholder just >>> like the aria-placeholder using the IA2 object attribute of placeholder? >>> >>> This provides the most flexibility for screenreaders to present the >>> placeholder information anyway they see fit. Using the placeholder as the >>> name is not as flexible as the screenreader cannot distinguish between the >>> placeholder and the label in this case. >>> >>> What does everyone think? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Brett >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Brett Lewis* >>> >>> *VFO* | Software Engineer >>> >>> 11800 31st Court North, St. Petersburg, FL 33716 >>> >>> *T* 727-299-6270 >>> >>> [email protected] >>> >>> www.vfo-group.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2 >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> James Teh >> Executive Director, NV Access Limited >> Ph +61 7 3149 3306www.nvaccess.org >> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess >> Twitter: @NVAccess >> SIP: [email protected] >> >> >
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