Joseph, should we request an update core-aam spec to make this change? anything else?
On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 8:17 PM, James Teh <ja...@nvaccess.org> wrote: > placeholder-text is fine with me. > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 12:02 AM, Alexander Surkov < > surkov.alexan...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Joanie suggested [1] to use 'placeholder-text' name to keep IAccessible2 >> and ATK closer. Are there objections? >> >> Having, placeholder for IA2 and placeholder-text for ATK could make life >> harder for implementators, at least it definitely will do in Firefox case. >> >> [1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1303429 >> >> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, James Teh <ja...@nvaccess.org> wrote: >> >>> Visually, placeholder is certainly more like a value than a >>> name/description. However, arguably, it is semantically different to a >>> value in that it's more of a hint for the user as to what to enter there. >>> The reason for the name mapping was partially because it's a nice fallback: >>> having no label at all is probably an authoring error, so it's reasonable >>> to fall back to placeholder. >>> >>> I think I originally supported the description idea, but on further >>> reflection, I'm not so sure this isn't going to cause problems. It just >>> occurred to me that if an author sets title or aria-describedby, that will >>> get mapped to description, thus killing the placeholder. So, we definitely >>> need to expose the placeholder attribute. However, once we have that (plus >>> AT support), we then always have to compare description with placeholder >>> "just in case", which is pretty ugly. Name is different because while no >>> name is probably authoring error, no description certainly isn't. >>> >>> In short, I'd like to propose that we: >>> 1. Expose the placeholder attribute; >>> 2. Keep the current behaviour of falling back to placeholder for name as >>> a last resort; >>> 3. When 1) happens, expose explicit-name:false; >>> 4. Don't ever fall back to placeholder for description. >>> >>> Jamie >>> >>> >>> On 15/09/2016 2:38 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote: >>> >>> Jamie, do you have objections? >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Brett Lewis <ble...@vfo-group.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I have always thought of the placeholder more like a value for the edit >>>> field rather than a name or description. >>>> >>>> However, I think the important thing is that we have a mechanism that >>>> allows assistive technology to “know” that the place holder is present and >>>> what the value of the placeholder is. >>>> >>>> Your suggestions accomplish that. >>>> >>>> Brett >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Brett Lewis* >>>> >>>> *VFO* | Software Engineer >>>> >>>> 11800 31st Court North, St. Petersburg, FL 33716 >>>> >>>> *T* 727-299-6270 >>>> >>>> ble...@vfo-group.com >>>> >>>> www.vfo-group.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Alexander Surkov [mailto:surkov.alexan...@gmail.com] >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 13, 2016 1:52 PM >>>> *To:* Brett Lewis <ble...@vfo-group.com>; James Teh <ja...@nvaccess.org >>>> > >>>> *Cc:* accessibility-...@lists.linux-foundation.org >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Accessibility-ia2] HTML placeholder attribute >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi, Brett and all. >>>> >>>> There's some discrepancy in the specs between UIA and IAccessible2 >>>> mappings. UIA column states [1] that HTML placeholder is mapped to >>>> accessible name and description, while IAccessible2 column says HTML >>>> placeholder has same mapping as aria-placeholder. aria-placeholder is >>>> exposed it in AriaProperties [2] for UIA and as object attribute for >>>> IAccessible2, the generic name computation doesn't mention aria-placeholder >>>> [3]. >>>> >>>> Leaving aside the specs, in case of IAccessible2 Firefox does similar >>>> things to UIA. Iirc we agreed [4] to expose placeholder as >>>> name/description, because it requires zero adoption efforts from AT, and >>>> since nobody claimed they need semantics of placeholder. >>>> >>>> If semantics loss is crucial for you, then I think we could fix it by >>>> exposing HTML placeholder this way: >>>> >>>> * name and description as Firefox does (fix the spec to make it clear) >>>> >>>> * expose placeholder object attribute >>>> >>>> * do not expose explicit-name='true' object attribute if placeholder >>>> was used as name >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> aria-placeholder may be left with the current mapping. How does it >>>> sound? >>>> >>>> >>>> [1] https://w3c.github.io/aria/html-aam/html-aam.html >>>> [2] http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html >>>> [3] https://w3c.github.io/aria/accname-aam/accname-aam.html >>>> [4] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Brett Lewis <ble...@vfo-group.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi All: >>>> >>>> I have been looking at how the HTML placeholder attribute is supported >>>> by IA2. >>>> >>>> According to the HTML accessibility API mappings at: >>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aam-1.0/ >>>> >>>> The placeholder in HTML should be handled just like the >>>> aria-placeholder. >>>> >>>> According to the core api accessibility mappings >>>> http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html >>>> >>>> The aria-placeholder is mapped to an Ia2 object attribute of >>>> placeholder. >>>> >>>> So, it sounds like the HTML placeholder should be mapped to an IA2 >>>> object attribute of placeholder. >>>> >>>> Currently Firefox seems to support the placeholder as the name of the >>>> field if there is no other name provided by the page author (from >>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817. >>>> >>>> This seems to contradict the description of aria-placeholder from >>>> >>>> the WAI-ARIA) 1.1 spec at http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/mas >>>> ter/aria/aria.html#aria-placeholder >>>> >>>> Says: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> “[ARIA 1.1] Defines a short hint (a word or short phrase) intended to >>>> aid the user with data entry when the control has no value. A hint could be >>>> a sample value or a brief description of the expected format. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Authors should not use aria-placeholder >>>> >>>> instead of a label as their purposes are different: The label indicates >>>> what kind of information is expected. The placeholder text is a hint about >>>> the >>>> >>>> expected value. See related aria-labelledby and aria-label. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Authors should present this hint to the user by displaying the hint >>>> text at any time the control's value is the empty string. This includes >>>> cases where >>>> >>>> the control first receives focus, and when users remove a >>>> previously-entered value. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> NOTE >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> As is the case with the related HTML placeholder >>>> >>>> attribute, use of placeholder text as a replacement for a displayed >>>> label can reduce the accessibility and usability of the control for a range >>>> of users >>>> >>>> including older users and users with cognitive, mobility, fine motor >>>> skill or vision impairments. While the hint given by the control's label is >>>> shown >>>> >>>> at all times, the short hint given in the placeholder attribute is only >>>> shown before the user enters a value. Furthermore, placeholder text may be >>>> mistaken for a pre-filled value, and as commonly implemented the default >>>> color of the placeholder text provides insufficient contrast and the lack >>>> of a separate visible label reduces the size of the hit region available >>>> for setting focus on the control.” >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I am suggesting that we all agree to present the HTML placeholder just >>>> like the aria-placeholder using the IA2 object attribute of placeholder? >>>> >>>> This provides the most flexibility for screenreaders to present the >>>> placeholder information anyway they see fit. Using the placeholder as the >>>> name is not as flexible as the screenreader cannot distinguish between the >>>> placeholder and the label in this case. >>>> >>>> What does everyone think? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Brett >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Brett Lewis* >>>> >>>> *VFO* | Software Engineer >>>> >>>> 11800 31st Court North, St. Petersburg, FL 33716 >>>> >>>> *T* 727-299-6270 >>>> >>>> ble...@vfo-group.com >>>> >>>> www.vfo-group.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list >>>> Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org >>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> James Teh >>> Executive Director, NV Access Limited >>> Ph +61 7 3149 3306www.nvaccess.org >>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess >>> Twitter: @NVAccess >>> SIP: ja...@nvaccess.org >>> >>> >> >
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