Alex, I've created an issue for the core-aam to make the change [1]. I will bring it up at next Tue's telecon to confirm that everyone is on board, but based on your email, it looks like the change will be approved.
Thanks. [1] https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1051 On 2016-10-21 11:37 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote: > Joseph, should we request an update core-aam spec to make this change? > anything else? > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 8:17 PM, James Teh <ja...@nvaccess.org > <mailto:ja...@nvaccess.org>> wrote: > > placeholder-text is fine with me. > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 12:02 AM, Alexander Surkov > <surkov.alexan...@gmail.com <mailto:surkov.alexan...@gmail.com>> > wrote: > > Joanie suggested [1] to use 'placeholder-text' name to keep > IAccessible2 and ATK closer. Are there objections? > > Having, placeholder for IA2 and placeholder-text for ATK could > make life harder for implementators, at least it definitely > will do in Firefox case. > > [1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1303429 > <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1303429> > > On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, James Teh <ja...@nvaccess.org > <mailto:ja...@nvaccess.org>> wrote: > > Visually, placeholder is certainly more like a value than > a name/description. However, arguably, it is semantically > different to a value in that it's more of a hint for the > user as to what to enter there. The reason for the name > mapping was partially because it's a nice fallback: having > no label at all is probably an authoring error, so it's > reasonable to fall back to placeholder. > > I think I originally supported the description idea, but > on further reflection, I'm not so sure this isn't going to > cause problems. It just occurred to me that if an author > sets title or aria-describedby, that will get mapped to > description, thus killing the placeholder. So, we > definitely need to expose the placeholder attribute. > However, once we have that (plus AT support), we then > always have to compare description with placeholder "just > in case", which is pretty ugly. Name is different because > while no name is probably authoring error, no description > certainly isn't. > > In short, I'd like to propose that we: > 1. Expose the placeholder attribute; > 2. Keep the current behaviour of falling back to > placeholder for name as a last resort; > 3. When 1) happens, expose explicit-name:false; > 4. Don't ever fall back to placeholder for description. > > Jamie > > > On 15/09/2016 2:38 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote: >> Jamie, do you have objections? >> >> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Brett Lewis >> <ble...@vfo-group.com <mailto:ble...@vfo-group.com>> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I have always thought of the placeholder more like a >> value for the edit field rather than a name or >> description. >> >> However, I think the important thing is that we have >> a mechanism that allows assistive technology to >> “know” that the place holder is present and what the >> value of the placeholder is. >> >> Your suggestions accomplish that. >> >> Brett >> >> >> >> >> >> *Brett Lewis* >> >> *VFO*| Software Engineer >> >> 11800 31^st Court North, St. Petersburg, FL 33716 >> >> *T*727-299-6270 <tel:727-299-6270> >> >> ble...@vfo-group.com <mailto:ble...@vfo-group.com> >> >> www.vfo-group.com <http://www.vfo-group.com>__ >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:*Alexander Surkov >> [mailto:surkov.alexan...@gmail.com >> <mailto:surkov.alexan...@gmail.com>] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 13, 2016 1:52 PM >> *To:* Brett Lewis <ble...@vfo-group.com >> <mailto:ble...@vfo-group.com>>; James Teh >> <ja...@nvaccess.org <mailto:ja...@nvaccess.org>> >> *Cc:* accessibility-...@lists.linux-foundation.org >> <mailto:accessibility-...@lists.linux-foundation.org> >> *Subject:* Re: [Accessibility-ia2] HTML placeholder >> attribute >> >> >> >> Hi, Brett and all. >> >> There's some discrepancy in the specs between UIA and >> IAccessible2 mappings. UIA column states [1] that >> HTML placeholder is mapped to accessible name and >> description, while IAccessible2 column says HTML >> placeholder has same mapping as aria-placeholder. >> aria-placeholder is exposed it in AriaProperties [2] >> for UIA and as object attribute for IAccessible2, the >> generic name computation doesn't mention >> aria-placeholder [3]. >> >> Leaving aside the specs, in case of IAccessible2 >> Firefox does similar things to UIA. Iirc we agreed >> [4] to expose placeholder as name/description, >> because it requires zero adoption efforts from AT, >> and since nobody claimed they need semantics of >> placeholder. >> >> If semantics loss is crucial for you, then I think we >> could fix it by exposing HTML placeholder this way: >> >> * name and description as Firefox does (fix the spec >> to make it clear) >> >> * expose placeholder object attribute >> >> * do not expose explicit-name='true' object attribute >> if placeholder was used as name >> >> >> >> aria-placeholder may be left with the current >> mapping. How does it sound? >> >> >> [1] https://w3c.github.io/aria/html-aam/html-aam.html >> <https://w3c.github.io/aria/html-aam/html-aam.html> >> [2] >> >> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html >> >> <http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname-aam.html> >> [3] >> https://w3c.github.io/aria/accname-aam/accname-aam.html >> <https://w3c.github.io/aria/accname-aam/accname-aam.html> >> [4] >> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817 >> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Brett Lewis >> <ble...@vfo-group.com <mailto:ble...@vfo-group.com>> >> wrote: >> >> Hi All: >> >> I have been looking at how the HTML placeholder >> attribute is supported by IA2. >> >> According to the HTML accessibility API mappings >> at: https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aam-1.0/ >> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aam-1.0/> >> >> The placeholder in HTML should be handled just >> like the aria-placeholder. >> >> According to the core api accessibility mappings >> http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html >> <http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html> >> >> The aria-placeholder is mapped to an Ia2 object >> attribute of placeholder. >> >> So, it sounds like the HTML placeholder should be >> mapped to an IA2 object attribute of placeholder. >> >> Currently Firefox seems to support the >> placeholder as the name of the field if there is >> no other name provided by the page author (from >> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817 >> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817>. >> >> This seems to contradict the description of >> aria-placeholder from >> >> the WAI-ARIA) 1.1 spec at >> >> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-placeholder >> >> <http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#aria-placeholder> >> >> Says: >> >> >> >> “[ARIA 1.1] Defines a short hint (a word or short >> phrase) intended to aid the user with data entry >> when the control has no value. A hint could be a >> sample value or a brief description of the >> expected format. >> >> >> >> Authors should not use aria-placeholder >> >> instead of a label as their purposes are >> different: The label indicates what kind of >> information is expected. The placeholder text is >> a hint about the >> >> expected value. See related aria-labelledby and >> aria-label. >> >> >> >> Authors should present this hint to the user by >> displaying the hint text at any time the >> control's value is the empty string. This >> includes cases where >> >> the control first receives focus, and when users >> remove a previously-entered value. >> >> >> >> NOTE >> >> >> >> As is the case with the related HTML placeholder >> >> attribute, use of placeholder text as a >> replacement for a displayed label can reduce the >> accessibility and usability of the control for a >> range of users >> >> including older users and users with cognitive, >> mobility, fine motor skill or vision impairments. >> While the hint given by the control's label is shown >> >> at all times, the short hint given in the >> placeholder attribute is only shown before the >> user enters a value. Furthermore, placeholder >> text may be mistaken for a pre-filled value, and >> as commonly implemented the default color of the >> placeholder text provides insufficient contrast >> and the lack of a separate visible label reduces >> the size of the hit region available for setting >> focus on the control.” >> >> >> >> >> >> I am suggesting that we all agree to present the >> HTML placeholder just like the aria-placeholder >> using the IA2 object attribute of placeholder? >> >> This provides the most flexibility for >> screenreaders to present the placeholder >> information anyway they see fit. Using the >> placeholder as the name is not as flexible as the >> screenreader cannot distinguish between the >> placeholder and the label in this case. >> >> What does everyone think? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Brett >> >> >> >> >> >> *Brett Lewis* >> >> *VFO*| Software Engineer >> >> 11800 31^st Court North, St. Petersburg, FL 33716 >> >> *T*727-299-6270 <tel:727-299-6270> >> >> ble...@vfo-group.com <mailto:ble...@vfo-group.com> >> >> www.vfo-group.com <http://www.vfo-group.com> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list >> Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org >> <mailto:Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org> >> >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2 >> >> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2> >> >> >> >> > > -- > James Teh > Executive Director, NV Access Limited > Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306> > www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org> > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess > <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess> > Twitter: @NVAccess > SIP: ja...@nvaccess.org <mailto:ja...@nvaccess.org> > -- ;;;;joseph. 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