Thank you! On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 1:26 PM, Joseph Scheuhammer <[email protected]> wrote:
> Alex, > > I've created an issue for the core-aam to make the change [1]. I will > bring it up at next Tue's telecon to confirm that everyone is on board, > but based on your email, it looks like the change will be approved. > > Thanks. > > [1] https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1051 > > On 2016-10-21 11:37 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote: > > Joseph, should we request an update core-aam spec to make this change? > > anything else? > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 8:17 PM, James Teh <[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > placeholder-text is fine with me. > > > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 12:02 AM, Alexander Surkov > > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > > wrote: > > > > Joanie suggested [1] to use 'placeholder-text' name to keep > > IAccessible2 and ATK closer. Are there objections? > > > > Having, placeholder for IA2 and placeholder-text for ATK could > > make life harder for implementators, at least it definitely > > will do in Firefox case. > > > > [1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1303429 > > <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1303429> > > > > On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 7:08 PM, James Teh <[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > Visually, placeholder is certainly more like a value than > > a name/description. However, arguably, it is semantically > > different to a value in that it's more of a hint for the > > user as to what to enter there. The reason for the name > > mapping was partially because it's a nice fallback: having > > no label at all is probably an authoring error, so it's > > reasonable to fall back to placeholder. > > > > I think I originally supported the description idea, but > > on further reflection, I'm not so sure this isn't going to > > cause problems. It just occurred to me that if an author > > sets title or aria-describedby, that will get mapped to > > description, thus killing the placeholder. So, we > > definitely need to expose the placeholder attribute. > > However, once we have that (plus AT support), we then > > always have to compare description with placeholder "just > > in case", which is pretty ugly. Name is different because > > while no name is probably authoring error, no description > > certainly isn't. > > > > In short, I'd like to propose that we: > > 1. Expose the placeholder attribute; > > 2. Keep the current behaviour of falling back to > > placeholder for name as a last resort; > > 3. When 1) happens, expose explicit-name:false; > > 4. Don't ever fall back to placeholder for description. > > > > Jamie > > > > > > On 15/09/2016 2:38 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote: > >> Jamie, do you have objections? > >> > >> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 12:30 PM, Brett Lewis > >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I have always thought of the placeholder more like a > >> value for the edit field rather than a name or > >> description. > >> > >> However, I think the important thing is that we have > >> a mechanism that allows assistive technology to > >> “know” that the place holder is present and what the > >> value of the placeholder is. > >> > >> Your suggestions accomplish that. > >> > >> Brett > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> *Brett Lewis* > >> > >> *VFO*| Software Engineer > >> > >> 11800 31^st Court North, St. Petersburg, FL 33716 > >> > >> *T*727-299-6270 <tel:727-299-6270> > >> > >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > >> > >> www.vfo-group.com <http://www.vfo-group.com>__ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> *From:*Alexander Surkov > >> [mailto:[email protected] > >> <mailto:[email protected]>] > >> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 13, 2016 1:52 PM > >> *To:* Brett Lewis <[email protected] > >> <mailto:[email protected]>>; James Teh > >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > >> *Cc:* [email protected] > >> <mailto:[email protected]> > >> *Subject:* Re: [Accessibility-ia2] HTML placeholder > >> attribute > >> > >> > >> > >> Hi, Brett and all. > >> > >> There's some discrepancy in the specs between UIA and > >> IAccessible2 mappings. UIA column states [1] that > >> HTML placeholder is mapped to accessible name and > >> description, while IAccessible2 column says HTML > >> placeholder has same mapping as aria-placeholder. > >> aria-placeholder is exposed it in AriaProperties [2] > >> for UIA and as object attribute for IAccessible2, the > >> generic name computation doesn't mention > >> aria-placeholder [3]. > >> > >> Leaving aside the specs, in case of IAccessible2 > >> Firefox does similar things to UIA. Iirc we agreed > >> [4] to expose placeholder as name/description, > >> because it requires zero adoption efforts from AT, > >> and since nobody claimed they need semantics of > >> placeholder. > >> > >> If semantics loss is crucial for you, then I think we > >> could fix it by exposing HTML placeholder this way: > >> > >> * name and description as Firefox does (fix the spec > >> to make it clear) > >> > >> * expose placeholder object attribute > >> > >> * do not expose explicit-name='true' object attribute > >> if placeholder was used as name > >> > >> > >> > >> aria-placeholder may be left with the current > >> mapping. How does it sound? > >> > >> > >> [1] https://w3c.github.io/aria/html-aam/html-aam.html > >> <https://w3c.github.io/aria/html-aam/html-aam.html> > >> [2] > >> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname- > aam.html > >> <http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/accname-aam/accname- > aam.html> > >> [3] > >> https://w3c.github.io/aria/accname-aam/accname-aam.html > >> <https://w3c.github.io/aria/ > accname-aam/accname-aam.html> > >> [4] > >> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817 > >> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 11:07 AM, Brett Lewis > >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > >> wrote: > >> > >> Hi All: > >> > >> I have been looking at how the HTML placeholder > >> attribute is supported by IA2. > >> > >> According to the HTML accessibility API mappings > >> at: https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aam-1.0/ > >> <https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aam-1.0/> > >> > >> The placeholder in HTML should be handled just > >> like the aria-placeholder. > >> > >> According to the core api accessibility mappings > >> http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html > >> <http://w3c.github.io/aria/core-aam/core-aam.html> > >> > >> The aria-placeholder is mapped to an Ia2 object > >> attribute of placeholder. > >> > >> So, it sounds like the HTML placeholder should be > >> mapped to an IA2 object attribute of placeholder. > >> > >> Currently Firefox seems to support the > >> placeholder as the name of the field if there is > >> no other name provided by the page author (from > >> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545817 > >> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/ > show_bug.cgi?id=545817>. > >> > >> This seems to contradict the description of > >> aria-placeholder from > >> > >> the WAI-ARIA) 1.1 spec at > >> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/ > master/aria/aria.html#aria-placeholder > >> <http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/ > master/aria/aria.html#aria-placeholder> > >> > >> Says: > >> > >> > >> > >> “[ARIA 1.1] Defines a short hint (a word or short > >> phrase) intended to aid the user with data entry > >> when the control has no value. A hint could be a > >> sample value or a brief description of the > >> expected format. > >> > >> > >> > >> Authors should not use aria-placeholder > >> > >> instead of a label as their purposes are > >> different: The label indicates what kind of > >> information is expected. The placeholder text is > >> a hint about the > >> > >> expected value. See related aria-labelledby and > >> aria-label. > >> > >> > >> > >> Authors should present this hint to the user by > >> displaying the hint text at any time the > >> control's value is the empty string. This > >> includes cases where > >> > >> the control first receives focus, and when users > >> remove a previously-entered value. > >> > >> > >> > >> NOTE > >> > >> > >> > >> As is the case with the related HTML placeholder > >> > >> attribute, use of placeholder text as a > >> replacement for a displayed label can reduce the > >> accessibility and usability of the control for a > >> range of users > >> > >> including older users and users with cognitive, > >> mobility, fine motor skill or vision impairments. > >> While the hint given by the control's label is shown > >> > >> at all times, the short hint given in the > >> placeholder attribute is only shown before the > >> user enters a value. Furthermore, placeholder > >> text may be mistaken for a pre-filled value, and > >> as commonly implemented the default color of the > >> placeholder text provides insufficient contrast > >> and the lack of a separate visible label reduces > >> the size of the hit region available for setting > >> focus on the control.” > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> I am suggesting that we all agree to present the > >> HTML placeholder just like the aria-placeholder > >> using the IA2 object attribute of placeholder? > >> > >> This provides the most flexibility for > >> screenreaders to present the placeholder > >> information anyway they see fit. Using the > >> placeholder as the name is not as flexible as the > >> screenreader cannot distinguish between the > >> placeholder and the label in this case. > >> > >> What does everyone think? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Brett > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> *Brett Lewis* > >> > >> *VFO*| Software Engineer > >> > >> 11800 31^st Court North, St. Petersburg, FL 33716 > >> > >> *T*727-299-6270 <tel:727-299-6270> > >> > >> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > >> > >> www.vfo-group.com <http://www.vfo-group.com> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> <mailto:[email protected] > > > >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ > accessibility-ia2 > >> <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/ > listinfo/accessibility-ia2> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > -- > > James Teh > > Executive Director, NV Access Limited > > Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306> > > www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org> > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess > > <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess> > > Twitter: @NVAccess > > SIP: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > > -- > ;;;;joseph. > > 'Die Wahrheit ist Irgendwo da Draußen. Wieder.' > - C. Carter - >
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