On 3/24/2011 3:10 PM, Mark Ty-Wharton wrote:
On 23 March 2011 20:52, YouWho? <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Mark, how can you honestly say that you know there is a world 'over
there' or anywhere, functioning on its own, without "I Am"?
I have been in some fairly impressive states of inebriation and the
sorts of things one would have expected to have happened in the time I
was not there happened without me
"the sort of things "...their existence (for you) only came about, when
you as the sense of a cognizer....
...cognized them at the moment when that cognition happened.
They had no existence prior to the event of cognition, nor after.
Which is why, much though it may seem like, there is no linear continuum
between moments.
Your beloved son has no existential reality, other than as an image
appearing in you......created by the tactile/visual sensation or by
mental shimmerings, aka conceptions out of memory of previous
tactile/visual hoopla...
.. which then requires the sense of you to be around, for the created
image to be hooked upon,aka localized.
So the clever mind will come up, in my absence does not my son exist
for his mother or for his grandparents, teachers, other brats in the
neighbourhood.
Sure, the same imaging process and the same hooks at which the image is
hooked on.......in each of "loci"
So do you exist to yourself?
Once again the same process of imaging and the same hook on which the
sense of I AM is hooked upon, which gathers further dust as I AM Mark,
writer-par excellence, knower of deep spirituality, joker, father,
spouse, a Pom.....whatever the infinite nuances of self identity.
LOL
It is intellectual theory and unprovable.
disagree - in this age of technology anything is provable - even
things that are not true :)
The world arose from "I Am," "I Am" did not arise from the world. "I
am and individual" arose from the world after the world arose from "I
Am."
and this is provable?
Where was the awake dream world of Mark, when the sleep dream world of
Mark prevailed?
Where is the sleep dream world of Mark, when these pixles are getting
read as part of the awake dream world of Mark ?
Where is either the awake dream world of Mark...
...OR...
..the sleep dream world of Mark... when the state of deep sleep prevails?
With the appearing/disappearing of "worlds"......what is it that
appears and dissipates ..
...as each state morphs into the other?
Don't try to figure it out.
A figuring out is just the hoops of mentation.....creating
terminology......"I AM" being one such.
Be with the question.
Be in the question.
Be the question.
And whatever created terminology comes up...
..the questions remains.....for whom is this new terminology of
relevance, of significance?
If you let go of "I Am" as you suggest, where is the world to be
found?
there doesn't need to be a sense of being for a world to exist
An age old koan
If nobody heard the sound of the tree, falling in deep forest........did
it fall?
If there is none to cognize the array of the perceived, the gestalt of
phenomenality.....
....does it (independently) exist?
Again disregard whatever you believe you know, as the answer to the
above koan.
The questing....for whom is that answer of relevance?
For whom is that answer, (any answer).......an answer.
And by whom? The answer to question of "by whom(or what)?" is the real
pith or essence.
there isn't anyone - IT is the illusion
That IT is the illusion, is an answer created by the mind which has
gathered knowledge and terminology.
For whom is it an illusion?
Is that which believes it is an illusion, apart from that which has been
judged to be an illusion?
If yes, the conclusion about the illusion .......is itself illusory ...
..and thus akin to the debate on the length of GZ's nostrils.
An allegory....
The stroller on the beach can clearly see that the hundreds and hundreds
of waves washing up ashore are no different
from the waters which collectively is referred to as the Ocean.
The stroller can catch a wave in his hand and all that will be in the
palm of his hand will be the Ocean.
This "non-duality", the stroller can perceive, experience, thus aver,
affirm, propound, expound.....
......because he is apart from the wave-water continuum, which allows
the very observation and the further conclusion about the observation.
Imagine, there is no beach.
There is no stroller-on-the-not existing beach.
Just the Oceanic expanse
What wave?
What Ocean
What wave-not-apart-from the Ocean?
What observation?
What conclusion of the reality or illusoriness of the observation?
How do you really let go of "I Am" until the body stops drawing
breath? You can let go of it momentarily as a mental excercise, but
the non-conceptual understanding that it is not true is the final
resolve. "I Am" is knowledge, the primal illusion which is without an
individual to let go of it. Only does the changeless stillness that is
its silent witness recognize the transience or untruth of that
Knowledge that is "I Am."
Surely "I Am" is the sense of a being a "me" in the world which showed
up when I was a child before which there was simply what was happening
While it's all terminology....
.....the sense of "me" is the sense of "I AM- X, Y, Z".(i.e.Mark, Bozo,
male, female, donkey, Guru, idiot.....ParamBrahman....et al)...
....with the added prevailing flavour of ...
...it is me which is thinking such and such, it is me which acting on
such and such thoughts chooses inter alia thoughts.....
.....and thus it is my choice, aka my decision...
... it is me which physically enacts on my decision, hence it is "my"
action and thus whatever are
the consequences of "my" actions, are my fruits, whether pleasant or
unpleasant.
Yes, realization of "I am not," or perhaps better said, "I am not only
I Am, but the knower of I Am," is a more accurate pointer, but lo and
behold, when that is understood, "I Am" is there/here shining in and
as its illuminative brilliance as an adornment on mySelf. "I am not"
is true for the individual, but "I Am" is both true and not true for
the real You, the Supreme Self, the Absolute.
You'll have to explain this more clearly?
Seeking explanations is gathering the moss of knowledge.
Which is just the sense of a mind, preening itself with the new
knowledge or in the refutation of the new knowledge.
In silence , which is just not the mere silence of the verbose...
..be with/in the quest.....
...be the quest.
