Yawn. The general population never made that boast until the NRA in the
1980s changed their tactics to spur slagging gun sales. They moved the
conversation to patriotic themes, talk of freedom, and other pabulum
gobbled up by folks. Contrary to popular “conservative” thinking, this
is not settled law. In fact, even Scalia has been clear it’s quite open.
Part of the issue is the meaning of “arms” and “keep” and “bear,” as
well as the limits therein. But, even more important is how modern gun
advocates neglect the entire first part of that amendment and pretend it
does not exist at all, when rather, it is, in fact, the entire modifying
context of the latter part of the sentence.
I quote;
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free
State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed."
The NRA has done yeoman’s work pretending that part of the amendment
does not exist. The “well regulated militia” is the subject, not guns.
The rest of the sentence is the modifier. “People” in this case are
represented by each state’s militia.
There is a significant opinion among many scholars that individual
citizens have no right at all to a gun.
Secondly, no right is absolute. Government even grants itself the
authority to regulate our inalienable rights (capital punishment, etc.).
Amendments can also be altered, like the idiot 18^th , in the face of
changing realities. The reality of then was a muzzle-loaded, single fire
musket.
And, even if anyone wants to play elementary games and claim literalism,
good luck with that, as that same text says nothing about ammunition,
keeping and bearing LOADED arms.
Patrick
*From:*Af [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Jeff Broadwick -
Lists
*Sent:* Monday, December 7, 2015 12:10 PM
*To:* [email protected]
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to buy
and why
Since when is a discussion of our legal, Constitutional rights
"pathetic" Patrick? We are talking about a tool, like any other, that
can be used to protect ourselves and others. WISPs are often out in
remote places in the dead of night...or at inner city data centers.
They are vulnerable. I know that one person on this list would likely
not be here right now if he hadn't been able to show a gun to someone
that was about to bash him with a baseball bat outside a data center.
Jeff Broadwick
ConVergence Technologies, Inc.
312-205-2519 Office
574-220-7826 Cell
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
On Dec 7, 2015, at 11:58 AM, Patrick Leary <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
I’ll just note this is a pathetic thread to have in any society that
considers itself civil. Hell, even in the “wild west” the local law
had people check their weapons into the sheriff when they came into
town. In fact, formerly, states like Texas lead the country in
banning open carry.
“All the more surprising, then, that Texas was the first state to
ban its citizens from carrying handguns, a restriction that remained
on the books for 125 years.”
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/politics/texas/article/First-to-ban-open-carry-Texas-could-be-one-of-5974401.php
And just read this scholarly article from 1999:
*Gun Control and the Old West*
By Ross Collins
History News Service <http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/~hns/index.html>,
Summer 1999.
The smoke has cleared, and we peer down at the victim: another gun
control bill, shot full ‘o holes. Just like in the old horse operas:
a hero again shoots to protect a precious freedom, America’s right
to bear arms. For many who keep a romantic image of America’s past,
gun control is like that, a battle steeped in American tradition. It
calls us back to those legendary days of the Old West, when cowboys
defended their honor and their horses by way of their Colts
.
In fact, most historians see the cowboys of the Old West as THE
defining heroes of 20th-century America. He’s used to sell
everything from soap to hats. He’s apparently also an ideal American
for anti-gun control groups: gun shows and gun advertising promote
from a distinctive Old West flavor.
Today’s anti gun control forces count their strongest support among
society’s leaders from the states that once formed part of the Old West.
The actual Old West pioneers of historical fact viewed matters
differently, however. They would certainly hail the campaign to
protect an American right to bear arms, but the record puts them
behind "moderate, common-sense measures" for gun control—the very
kind that President Clinton has proposed.
Pioneer publications show Old West leaders repeatedly arguing in
favor of gun control. City leaders in the old cattle towns knew from
experience what some Americans today don't want to believe: a town
which allows easy access to guns invites trouble.
What these cow town leaders saw intimately in their day-to-day
association with guns is that more guns in more places caused not
greater safety, but greater death in an already dangerous
wilderness. By the 1880s many in the west were fed up with gun
violence. Gun control, they contended, was absolutely essential, and
the remedy advocated usually was usually no less than a total ban on
pistol-packing.
The editor of the Black Hills Daily Times of Dakota Territory in
1884, called the idea of carrying firearms into the city a
“dangerous practice,” not only to others, but to the packer himself.
He emphasized his point with the headline, "Perforated by His Own
Pistol."
The editor of the Montana’s Yellowstone Journal acknowledged four
years earlier that Americans have "the right to bear arms," but he
contended that guns have to be regulated. As for cowboys carrying
pistols, a dispatch from Laramie’s Northwest Stock Journal in 1884,
reported, "We see many cowboys fitting up for the spring and summer
work. They all seem to think it absolutely necessary to have a
revolver. Of all foolish notions this is the most absurd."
Cowboy president Theodore Roosevelt recalled with approval that as a
Dakota Territory ranch owner, his town, at the least, allowed "no
shooting in the streets." The editor of that town's newspaper, The
Bad Lands Cow Boy of Medora, demanded that gun control be even
tighter than that, however. Like leaders in Miles City and many
other cow towns, he wanted to see guns banned entirely within the
city limits. A.T. Packard in August 1885 called "packing a gun" a
"senseless custom," and noted about a month later that "As a
protection, it is terribly useless.”
Old West cattlemen themselves also saw the need for gun control. By
1882, a Texas cattle raising association had banned six-shooters
from the cowboy's belt. "In almost every section of the West murders
are on the increase, and cowmen are too often the principals in the
encounters," concurred a dispatch from the Texas Live Stock Journal
dated June 5, 1884. "The six-shooter loaded with deadly cartridges
is a dangerous companion for any man, especially if he should
unfortunately be primed with whiskey. Cattlemen should unite in
aiding the enforcement of the law against carrying of deadly weapons."
This echoes President Clinton’s reaction following the failure in
Congress of the most recent gun control proposals: “The American
people will not stand for this.” So far they have, however, as
recalled by the record of defeated attempts to legislate control. As
U.S. Rep. Martin Sabo (D.-Minn.) noted, “there’s broad public
support for it, but he opponents are much more intense about it.”
The Old West’s leaders who argued for gun control knew that a long
time ago. Their arguments sound as contemporary at the end of this
century as they were earnest at the end of the last. But despite
them, few packers have been persuaded to put away their pistols,
then or now.
Copyright 2004 by Ross F. Collins
<www.ndsu.edu/communication/collins
<http://www.ndsu.edu/communication/collins>>
Wayne LaPierre sure has done his job well. He’s made most of you
fooled into thinking owning a gun is a patriotic act without you
realizing you are just another tool for raking in the dough. He’s
been so successful he’s converted gun ownership into a religious
issue, to point that whether or not you own a gun is highly
predictive of your being an evangelical Christian.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/is-gun-ownership-christian/2013/01/25/c7afe7fe-6724-11e2-93e1-475791032daf_story.html
Patrick
*From:*Af [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Cameron Crum
*Sent:* Monday, December 7, 2015 11:38 AM
*To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns - which to
buy and why
I carry a Colt 45 Defender. It is relatively small for a 45. An NSA
buddy of mine, who had been in several close range shootouts in his
career asked me one time why I carry a 45. I told him that I'd never
been in a firefight. I don't train in high pressure situations, and
while I'm proficient at the range, I don't train for situations like
he did or the cops do. If I am in a situation where I have to pull a
gun, my adrenaline is going to be pumping like crazy, and I may be
moving to cover or trying to stay out of the way of bullets myself.
I may only hit what I'm shooting at once if I'm lucky. I want the
once to count.
On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:30 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
define legally
If a bear shits in the woods, will tight shoes cause callouses?
I dont know why any of you want these killing machines, the
government has guns, and we pay them to protect us. Your gun, if
you hand it to a bad guy, is 100% of the time going to be in the
bad guys possession, and if that bad guy happens to be 5, youve
just given a child a handgun, are you saying we should arm
children? Why are you trying to kill children, children are the
future, teach them well and let them lead the way.
Imperialist scum be furthering decline humanity. Mighty leader
will devour you in fear.
<image002.jpg>
On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Chuck McCown <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Can you legally own hand grenades?
*From:*Mathew Howard <mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:*Monday, December 07, 2015 9:15 AM
*To:*af <mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns -
which to buy and why
you do if you want to conceal it... :P
On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Chuck McCown
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
You don’t need a CC to carry a Springfield 30-06....
*From:*Paul McCall <mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:*Monday, December 07, 2015 9:03 AM
*To:*[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:*[AFMUG] WAY OT: Concealed Carry handguns -
which to buy and why
I am getting my CC permit (Florida) in a week or so. I
took an absolutely excellent class from the main trainer
at the Brevard county sheriff’s office.
Now, I am looking for an excellent CC gun to use, as my
long barrel Colt 38 is not a good fit for that.
I am certain that this group probably has a LOT of
expertise (and many opinions) on THE gun to use.
J
Paul McCall, Pres.
PDMNet / Florida Broadband
658 Old Dixie Highway
Vero Beach, FL 32962
772-564-6800 <tel:772-564-6800> office
772-473-0352 <tel:772-473-0352> cell
www.pdmnet.com <http://www.pdmnet.com/>
[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
--
If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see
your team as part of yourself you have already failed as part of
the team.
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