Yep, very well said. On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 12:19 AM, Eric Kuhnke <[email protected]> wrote:
> a huge number of people on this list seem to be absolutely determined to > reinvent the wheel for things like billing systems. there is nothing about > a WISP that makes a billing system particularly different than what any > major ISP needs. > > what's wrong with whmcs and its myriad of different available payment > processors? you pay something like $20/month total. > > it's amazing that companies with anywhere from 100 to 3000 subscribers > think they need to create from scratch a new billing system that meets > needs which have not been previously resolved in billing software used by > ISPs with 20,000 , 50,000 or 400,000 customers. Just because you do > wireless last mile PtMP with radios and not ADSL2+/VDSL2 or DOCSIS2/DOCSIS3 > cable does not mean that your billing and provisioning system should be any > different. > > this is exactly like people who want to stick to THE DUDE and mikrotik > based proprietary monitoring software that only runs on windows. You > seriously think large ISPs with 50,000 customers are using that stuff? > Look at OpenNMS and similar software that is under active development for > use by major backbone operators. You want something special? Develop a > plugin for opennms, don't marry yourself to a vendor specific monitoring > software like the dude. > > It is always the singlehomed small customer ISP that thinks its needs are > so wildly different than the major operators. The small guys who wouldn't > know an IX peering fabric from a potato want to reinvent the wheel. *We're > special* so we need this weird email software that somehow meets our > special needs, we're too good to run postfix and dovecot like a normal ISP. > > stop and consider for a moment that if you need to reinvent the wheel to > meet the needs of your special messed up business process, you have: > > a) created an unsustainable unscaleable business that will never be able > to grow beyond your small local market. > > b) created something that no sane large ISP would want to acquire due to > the ridiculous number of man hours required to yank out your special-sauce > custom system and replace it with industry standard monitoring, billing and > infrastructure systems. > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 9:01 AM, SmarterBroadband < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Brett >> >> >> >> Take a look at K-Billing.com >> >> >> >> It costs $99 one time. No more to pay. Runs on a PC. Works with many >> merchants. We have used it for our WISP billing system for close to 10 >> years. >> >> >> >> Should do what you want. Easy and works. Just billing, nothing else. >> >> >> >> We are close to 2,000 customers now and moving to PowerCode. >> >> >> >> Adam >> >> >> >> *From:* Af [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Brett A Mansfield >> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 09, 2015 2:03 PM >> *To:* [email protected] >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Need new billing solution asap!!! >> >> >> >> It makes perfect sense to not pay a minimum monthly fee for software that >> so sold. If you're managing it all of the time then yes, that makes sense >> to pay monthly. My issue isn't with paying for a product or with a monthly >> cost. My issue is with charging a per sub AND a minimum monthly cost. My >> per sub doesn't ever come close to the minimum monthly cost for pretty much >> anyone. >> >> >> >> I did say it's break even, I didn't say it's a business. It's break even >> IF I'm the only one to use it. It will be profitable if anyone uses it, >> though the profit will be low. I'm not doing this to start a business. I'm >> doing this so that people with fewer than 100 customers have an easy to >> deploy, and easy and cheap to use option. That is it. I never said that >> those of you with larger solutions are doing anything wrong or that you >> have poor products. I don't agree with that model, but if I had 300+ >> customers I could completely see a use case for those products like >> powercode, wispmon, platypus, etc. But for me and most WISPs with fewer >> than 100 customers, those solutions make zero sense. >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> Brett A Mansfield >> >> >> On Dec 9, 2015, at 2:49 PM, Josh Luthman <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Because if you're making software that you sell and manage a one time fee >> doesn't work. >> >> You're wanting to make a product that breaks even. That simply makes no >> business case. >> >> Josh Luthman >> Office: 937-552-2340 >> Direct: 937-552-2343 >> 1100 Wayne St >> Suite 1337 >> Troy, OH 45373 >> >> On Dec 9, 2015 4:44 PM, "Brett A Mansfield" <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> The research I did was very extensive. Wispmon in particular has their >> pricing right on their website (which I love by the way. I wish everyone >> would). >> >> >> >> You say that billing is the most important part of my business. I >> respectfully disagree. It is actually one of the least important. The >> product I'm selling is by far the most important, and the customer service >> is next. Billing only happens after the first two are met. >> >> >> >> You mentioned several other things: >> >> >> >> *"I'm curious to what other systems you have in place that handle things >> like mapping, monitoring, FCC reporting, sales tracking, prospect >> qualification, inventory management, ip management, work orders, trouble >> tickets, scheduling, provisioning, automated suspension and payments, >> reporting, and more in addition to billing?"* >> >> >> >> With the small size of my company this is all very easily managed with >> simple (and free) spreadsheets. So this argument is irrelevant to me. When >> I get to a size where it is no longer easily managed, then and only then >> will I start to pay for a service that can provide that (it will not be >> until then that my business can afford to pay for it). >> >> >> >> You then offer advice to pay for this stuff from the beginning. Not >> everyone is going to model their business in the way you think or society >> thinks it should be. My business model is very, very different from the >> norm. It's people that deviate from the "accepted standard", the ones that >> think outside the box, that tend to do really well. My idea of success and >> my idea of what and how a business should operate are not the same as >> yours. >> >> >> >> Billing is something that should not be this difficult and expensive. Why >> should I pay 5% of my revenue to someone that does nearly nothing??? If I >> take what wispmon charges, add that to what it cost me to run a payment, >> and then take out my operating costs, the likelihood of there being much >> left is very low. The credit card companies already steal almost 3% before >> I even pay the gateway company. Why are there so many different people >> involved to make is to I can collect $45 from my customer? >> >> >> >> I really like what stripe, swipe, and PayPal have done by basically >> taking one of the people out of that. The only problem is that they aren't >> set up well for monthly recurring payments. That is what I intend to close >> the gap on. >> >> >> >> Anyone who charges by the sub or has a monthly minimum so high that it >> isn't worth it does not have a business model I agree with. >> >> >> >> I had seriously considered wispmon, but quickly ruled them out as soon as >> I realized that you charge more for BYO Merchant account. I already have a >> merchant account and have no interest in paying $200 to sign up for a new >> one I have no experience with, or pay en extra $0.30 per sub per month >> because I want to use someone I already use and trust. >> >> >> >> Another problem with Wispmon is that the main website looks like it was >> built by using someone's free template that was simply modified old using >> basic HTML code. If that is the impression I get from the main website, >> what kind of product could they possibly be giving me? Will it look good? >> Will it be based on old code too? Will it be easy to use? Too many >> questions right off the bat. I'm not at all saying that this is how it is, >> just saying that perception is reality. My first impression wasn't good, so >> that sets the tone for the rest. >> >> >> >> You then went on to give me unsolicited advice as if to tell me how to be >> running my business. My question was not why I should or shouldn't do >> something, it was simply what options are out there. I've asked this >> question several times and have done very extensive research on several >> products. I didn't go that deep into wispmon because of my very first >> impressions. And now after the email you sent out I will never consider it >> again in the future. >> >> >> Thank you, >> >> Brett A Mansfield >> >> >> On Dec 9, 2015, at 2:05 PM, Cameron Crum <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I'm curious what your review consisted of? To my knowledge, you never >> contacted us to ask any questions even after an offlist invitation. It >> seems if you are going to the trouble of creating something new, you would >> at least perform an exhaustive analysis meaning you are talking to someone >> to ask questions. I understand you think that perhaps the most important >> piece of your business should be free or close to it, but is that really >> where you want to skimp? Having owned a wisp for 8 years starting in 2003 >> and sold to JAB in 2010, and actually been where you think you are now, >> when there really were few platforms available, I would have jumped at the >> chance to pay under $1 (or maybe slightly more) per sub to have all the >> capability that most of the current systems currently have. I'm curious to >> what other systems you have in place that handle things like mapping, >> monitoring, FCC reporting, sales tracking, prospect qualification, >> inventory management, ip management, work orders, trouble tickets, >> scheduling, provisioning, automated suspension and payments, reporting, and >> more in addition to billing? If you are using separate systems for all of >> these things, then it is probably costing you more than what you would pay >> for a single platform which does all of these things. I know you say you >> are small and if you are doing all of these things manually or with >> multiple platforms, there will be a day when that won't scale and you will >> either be killing yourself trying to keep up, or spending far more than you >> think to make it all work. My advice would be to do a bit more real >> research before you dig into rolling your own. Talk to people who have been >> in your shoes and were adverse to spending money on a good system. I tell >> people who are evaluating different systems, that even if they don't choose >> us, choose one of the ones out there. If you are just getting started, it >> is the best decision you will make. It is much easier to get in at the >> beginning than to convert later. The hardest part of being a self-starting >> entrepreneur is knowing when to let go of certain things and either pay >> someone to do them, or pay to get them out of the way so you can get down >> to growing your business. This I know for sure, as it is the hardest part >> for me. >> >> >> >> Cameron >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 11:48 AM, Brett A Mansfield < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> To be clear, this will not be a standard in any way. It's just to fill a >> need where I see one. Something for the little guys like myself. This will >> not be a solution for those big customers since it will be limited to >> billing/CRM. >> >> >> >> I'm not doing this for profit. I'm doing this on the side and the numbers >> should make it break even. >> >> >> >> Eric, I really like that comic strip, it is exactly what I was thinking >> when I thought of doing this. Haha. >> >> >> >> There is NOTHING on the market like it though. Something that works, that >> is nearly free, that is for the very small guys where every single penny >> counts. >> >> >> >> If nobody in the world uses this system but me, then I'll still feel it >> was worth my time. My partners are volunteering their time and so am I, so >> our cost will be very low to develop this. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Brett A Mansfield >> >> >> On Dec 9, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Josh Luthman <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Good luck. It certainly has been tried before... >> >> >> >> >> Josh Luthman >> Office: 937-552-2340 >> Direct: 937-552-2343 >> 1100 Wayne St >> Suite 1337 >> Troy, OH 45373 >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 12:27 PM, Brett A Mansfield < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> So, after a lot of review of every billing solution I can find out there, >> I've come to the conclusion that there is no good billing system. >> Everything out there either requires you use their merchant, has a minimum >> monthly cost, or isn't really designed for the ISP. Even the stuff that has >> come out most recently isn't a good fit. >> >> >> >> For those of you who are smaller and don't want to pay a monthly minimum, >> or want to use your choice of merchant, or don't want to pay a per user >> charge, something new will be coming soon! >> >> >> >> I've spoken to a few proven software engineers in the financial side of >> things and we are partnering up to develop a new ISP billing software. It >> will be turnkey, very easy to use, and can be deployed either by you on >> your servers, or can be hosted on ours. It will only handle >> billing/invoicing and CRM/ticketing. Best of all, it's practically free! >> >> >> >> More details to come. I'll keep you posted when we have more info. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Brett A Mansfield >> >> >> On Dec 7, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Mike Hammett <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Welcome to 2014? >> >> >> >> ----- >> Mike Hammett >> Intelligent Computing Solutions >> http://www.ics-il.com >> >> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> >> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> >> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> >> >> Midwest Internet Exchange >> http://www.midwest-ix.com >> >> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> >> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> >> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From: *"Adam Moffett" <[email protected]> >> *To: *[email protected] >> *Sent: *Monday, December 7, 2015 1:32:33 PM >> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Need new billing solution asap!!! >> >> Ubiquiti has a CRM? >> >> On 12/7/2015 2:27 PM, Brett A Mansfield wrote: >> >> It's funny you mentioned waveapps. That is what I started out with. It >> was a disaster. And the fact they don't allow multiple email addresses for >> recurring invoices was a major deal breaker for me. >> >> >> >> I've since moved to UBNTs airCRM. It is an excellent setup on paper, but >> is seriously lacking currently and is very erratic. I need something solid, >> secure, and that I don't have to worry about all the time. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Brett A Mansfield >> >> >> On Dec 7, 2015, at 12:08 PM, Joshaven Mailing Lists <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Plat has excellent support >> >> >> >> In my opinion, the problems with plat are: >> >> 1) The user interface is a pain in the butt and generally discouraging. >> >> 2) The software depends on a Windows platform and even worse direct >> database connections from the client. >> >> >> >> 1) In most places when you want to alter something like customer data you >> have to click on the field to edit from a table and then go to the top to >> make the change in something that is like an address bar… of course you can >> get used to this but Plat is full of non-user friendly quirks like this. >> It reminds me of what it feels like to go back and use Windows 95 or >> Windows 3.1 when I am used to modern operating systems. The system feels >> almost like directly editing a database except that the software does >> enforce logical edits so it is not nearly as dangerous as direct database >> minupulation. >> >> >> >> 2) If you want to run a good highly available platform then you will be >> spending a lot on software licensing with Microsoft. What is the going >> rate for a MSSQL cluster now of days? Of course you can throw this on old >> rusty crusty in a closet and run the free version of MSSQL but we are >> carriers not hacks right? Also you are depending on ODBC database >> connections between your clients and the server. Opening direct database >> connections to my billing server gives me the creeps even if it is only >> open to a network under my administration. I’m a fan of local host db >> access only except for database peers. I would really like to see ISP >> billing software be web based using standard https protocols and having no >> client side dependencies like odbc configurations and client executables. >> Try using Plat on a tablet… I don’t want my billing platform holding back >> my ability to creatively design my installation process… >> >> >> >> >> >> I feel like I am ragging on Plat… maybe I am a bit but I want to >> underscore their support. They are truly exceptional to work with and you >> can rely on their platform. Just don’t expect to enjoy using it. If you >> like function over form then you may be a perfect match for Plat… I just >> wish they would do some magic to address the above two complaints. >> >> >> >> My recommendation to them is to become database & OS agnostic (at least >> MySQL or MSSQL and run on Apache) and to make the client interface be 100% >> standards compliment browser based. I suspect if they don’t do this they >> will find themselves with a EOL product in the next few years. >> >> >> >> Right now there are really good options emerging like WaveApps. Wave >> offers free billing including credit card processing at fair rates. They >> don’t fit perfectly with an ISP (yet) but they are promising an API which >> means that a good solutions provider can crank out an integrations solution >> with Wave for front end billing. I am also super excited to see what Sonar >> has to offer. I hope their offer is solid and we have a glorious solution… >> >> >> >> >> At any rate I am waiting with bated breath to see where this lands over >> the next few months. >> >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Joshaven Potter >> MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, UACA >> Google Hangouts: [email protected] >> Cell & SMS: 1-517-607-9370 >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Dec 7, 2015, at 9:47 AM, Chuck Hogg <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> I can setup Platypus for billing only in less than an hour, including >> setting up plans/rates/services/importing customers. >> >> >> Regards, >> Chuck >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Josh Luthman <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> That get's to be a little in depth and probably a loaded question...but I >> know when we moved to Powercode the old team that wasn't very good had it >> done in one afternoon. This was from Quickbooks. >> >> >> >> >> Josh Luthman >> Office: 937-552-2340 >> Direct: 937-552-2343 >> 1100 Wayne St >> Suite 1337 >> Troy, OH 45373 >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Ken Hohhof <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Are you including database conversion? Items, customers, current >> balances, recurring billing, credit cards, etc. >> >> >> >> Then there’s setting up the online customer payment portal. Especially >> if customers already had online accounts. And you need to hook it into >> your merchant account, put your logo on it, test it, etc. >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Josh Luthman <[email protected]> >> >> *Sent:* Saturday, December 05, 2015 2:24 PM >> >> *To:* [email protected] >> >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Need new billing solution asap!!! >> >> >> >> I'm simply saying 2 days is a long time to setup a billing system. For >> someone that wants it running "immediately" 2 days is a LONG time. >> >> >> >> >> >> Josh Luthman >> Office: 937-552-2340 >> Direct: 937-552-2343 >> 1100 Wayne St >> Suite 1337 >> Troy, OH 45373 >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Philip Rankin <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Hey, I'm not in this for an argument. I am just offering to help a guy >> out if I can. I'll bow out of this conversation. >> >> On Dec 5, 2015 1:37 PM, "Josh Luthman" <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Two days??? Powercode takes like an hour. >> >> >> >> >> Josh Luthman >> Office: 937-552-2340 >> Direct: 937-552-2343 >> 1100 Wayne St >> Suite 1337 >> Troy, OH 45373 >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 2:34 PM, Philip Rankin <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Guys, I am still a major believer in Tucows Platypus. Brett, I could >> have you up and running with Plat in under 2 days as long as you can answer >> speed and pricing questions as I ask them. And all I would need is remote >> access to a Windows 7 computer. Let me know if you are interested. Most >> of the training can be done remotely in less than a day, too. >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 12:55 AM, Simon Westlake <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> I think it is still pretty early on. >> >> >> >> On 12/4/2015 6:22 PM, Chuck Hogg wrote: >> >> So I guess it does that...lol. I wasn't really expecting it to be like >> that. >> >> >> >> It's not very baked ? or am I missing something? >> >> >> >> Regards, >> Chuck >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 7:07 PM, Chuck Hogg <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I meant for the admin side? >> >> >> >> Regards, >> Chuck >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Faisal Imtiaz <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Just guessing.... >> >> >> >> Drop down on top right, select signup/create account ! >> >> >> >> :) >> >> >> >> Faisal Imtiaz >> Snappy Internet & Telecom >> 7266 SW 48 Street >> Miami, FL 33155 >> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 >> >> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: [email protected] >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From: *"Chuck Hogg" <[email protected]> >> *To: *[email protected] >> *Sent: *Friday, December 4, 2015 4:25:07 PM >> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Need new billing solution asap!!! >> >> Anyone know how to login to his demo? >> >> >> >> Regards, >> Chuck >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Simon Westlake <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> https://github.com/spencerlambert/wisp-central-control >> >> On 12/4/2015 10:08 AM, Jeremy wrote: >> >> Isn't Spencer Lambert's web front-end free? Last time I saw him at >> Animal Farm he was touting it and said he would help with setup and >> customization at a flat rate of $100/hr. He is located in Utah, also. If >> you want something cheap or free that may be an option. It would probably >> be worth contacting him. I recommend Powercode. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 8:58 AM, Craig Schmaderer < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> I've been looking at https://www.whmcs.com/ >> >> I have a friend that uses it for his ventrillo voice business and it does >> auto billing and ticketing and is cheap. I think you can get a hosted >> solution if you don't want to install it. >> >> Craig schmaderer >> Skywave Wireless, Inc. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 7:41 AM -0800, "Brett A Mansfield" < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> Here is what I've always said about quality, cheap and fast. >> >> >> >> You can only pick two. You will never have all three. >> >> >> >> For this I need fast and quality. Cheap is relative in this case. I don't >> have a lot of customers so the $200/mo min that visp requires is about >> $100-150 too much for me. I'm fine with a reasonable one time fee, but it >> must be reasonable. >> >> >> >> I used to use waveapps to just invoice and then customers could pay using >> the invoice. But if they didn't get the email or lost it, they couldn't pay >> their bill. >> >> >> >> I appreciate everyone's input on this. I think I'm going with platypus >> and pay someone to set it up. >> >> >> >> I like powercode, I just cannot justify the initial cost for my small >> size operation. >> >> Thank you, >> >> Brett A Mansfield >> >> >> On Dec 4, 2015, at 7:47 AM, Chris Fabien <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Good, cheap, and fast? You know what they say about that. >> >> We are reasonably happy with Powercode. Few gripes but it has never >> double or triple charged our customers. >> >> On Dec 4, 2015 1:35 AM, "Brett A Mansfield" <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> I'm looking for a good billing solution that is cheap and I can have up >> in running immediately. >> >> I've had far too many issues with my current billing system. >> >> I need something turnkey and cheap. My WISP is a fairly small operation. >> >> I am not willing to pay per sub, especially if there is a minimum like >> visp. I don't want to buy any new hardware. I looked at platypus, but it >> cannot be deployed easily or quickly. I looked at powercode, but I don't >> want to buy any new hardware. >> >> Is there anything out there that might fit my needs? Or should I just go >> back to manual invoicing with quickbooks? >> >> Thank you, >> Brett A Mansfield >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Simon Westlake >> >> Skype: Simon_Sonar >> >> Email: [email protected] >> >> Phone: (702) 447-1247 >> >> --------------------------- >> >> Sonar Software Inc >> >> The next generation of ISP billing and OSS >> >> https://sonar.software >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Simon Westlake >> >> Skype: Simon_Sonar >> >> Email: [email protected] >> >> Phone: (702) 447-1247 >> >> --------------------------- >> >> Sonar Software Inc >> >> The next generation of ISP billing and OSS >> >> https://sonar.software >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Philip J. Rankin >> >> Wireless Telecommunications Services >> PO Box 24 >> Pittsburg, KS 66762 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >
