Mike, On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 2:12 AM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]>wrote:
> ** > Steve:My point was that while a tractor may be interesting, it is not on > the way to building a supercomputer. > >> A robot that can navigate any terrain of a given kind is a general >> machine - something that doesn't exist. >> > > It's called a farm tractor. Once you put them in gear, they can crawl over > almost anything. > > Steve, > > This is an awesome remark - you don't understand AGI, period. > > A tractor is not an AGI - it doesn't work without a human driver.; > Some of them DO. Guided by GPS, they haul their loads back and forth across fields to plow, plant, or harvest. > The human is the AGI. [That's about the most basic error you can make in > AGI]. > > There is no such thing yet as a general machine - a robot for example that > can navigate "blind" *any* terrain within a broad band - and not just, as > present, one terrain that has been carefully preplotted for it and that it > is totally familiar with. > > Or a robot that can *handle* any object "blind". Produce a robot that can > do that and you have the beginnings of an AGI and we can move on from there. > As explained in my previous posting, I don't think so. > That, very crudely, in principle, is how evolution did it > No, evolution figured out how systems could self-organize to handle ANYTHING, and do it without the intricate ad hoc logic of "modern" systems. > That is how all technological evolution proceeds. > or as I suspect in this case - runs into dead ends. Astrology and alchemy are two good examples of going the wrong way and hitting dead ends. Sure astronomy and chemistry replaced them, but by incorporating almost nothing from the dead ended disciplines. I suspect that you are on just such a dead end. > "Uploading" is neither a practical problem > This all depends on whether people will invest in it, and has nothing at all to do with its immediate practicality. > nor an AGI problem > I think you must learn pretty much the SAME things to make either strong AGI or uploading/downloading work, and so far there seems to be little interest in going after that knowledge. > - it is a fantasy problem > like atomic energy, powered flight, personal computers, etc. > for the extraordinarily distant future, > At the present rate of "progress" I absolutely agree. Until we start seeing some SERIOUS investment in closing on the many challenges, this will forever remain a "technology of the future" for us and our grandchildren. > and superwoolly > ??? > And your entire debate about the relevance of maths for AGI is fantasy > through and through. > Now that you have excused yourself from intelligent debate about this... > Get practical. Start with the end-problems. > My proposal for a Reverse Turing Competition started right there, but attracted ZERO interest. I can't hold a competition without any contestants. > AGI investors will quite rightly want to know what your machine can *do*, > not what maths it uses. Serious invention (as distinct from pure fantasy > discussions) begins from the practical end-problems/tasks a machine has to > be designed for. > Have you ever seen the ludicrous films of people who attempted to make airplanes without doing their design homework? That is what was flashing through my mind as I read this. You seem to have no sense at all of history. What inventions have been made without either understanding the underlying principles (like all of electronics), or simulating and twiddling until they worked (like all of aviation)? You reject both approaches, yet apparently have nothing to offer to fill this void other than the SAME apparently hopeless hope that has been held for the last half century that AI will eventually emerge. Steve ========================== > *From:* Steve Richfield <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Thursday, July 12, 2012 5:44 AM > *To:* AGI <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [agi] Analog Computation > > Mike, > > On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 6:01 PM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]>wrote: > >> ** >> It's weak AGI, Steve. You have to start somewhere, and you have to start >> simple. >> > > My point was that while a tractor may be interesting, it is not on the way > to building a supercomputer. > >> A robot that can navigate any terrain of a given kind is a general >> machine - something that doesn't exist. >> > > It's called a farm tractor. Once you put them in gear, they can crawl over > almost anything. > >> An extraordinary breakthrough. >> >> Now here's a simple bet for you - you can't give me a single practical >> example of what the AGI you are talking about will do. >> > > Uploading/downloading may be worth MORE than the combined wealth of the > entire earth!!! How? because people would borrow on their futures to be > "alive" to have a future. > >> You're talking about this-and-that maths, but you haven't got a clue >> about any practical problems - demonstrably AGI problems - that your maths >> would apply to. >> > > There are some challenges with the concept of "practical". Our world > already has enough good machines for us all to live a good life. Beyond > that, you are looking more at "valuable" than "practical", where the > measure is whatever people will pay money for, regardless of what the item > does. Here, uploading/downloading is clearly the really BIG winner. > > Given the financial success of cryonics, you don't have to actually have > it working for it to be valuable - just have an apparently clear > development path. > > Steve > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/6952829-59a2eca5> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10443978-6f4c28ac> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > -- Full employment can be had with the stoke of a pen. Simply institute a six hour workday. That will easily create enough new jobs to bring back full employment. ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-c97d2393 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-2484a968 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
