You are correct. AI must be able to learn the problem, not just the solution. It has to be able to start out with minimal knowledge, & discover what it needs to know from scratch. That is not in dispute. So why is it that you make these accusations that we collectively disregard that fact? On what basis do you make the claim that we are unaware of it? And why do you lump current attempts at AI in with "classical AI"? Who said anything about having full knolwedge ahead of time? You're fighting against something that doesn't even exist.
Putting that aside for the momentm one thing you said made no sense to me: How does having partial knowledge make complexity drop to zero? I'm not sure what you mean in the first place, but if you mean that the representation of the system's environment has zero complexity just because it's incomplete, I would point to the part of the representation that *is* complete and ask, what happened to it's complexity? On Aug 26, 2012 2:57 PM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]> wrote: Jim, A crucial part of the mistake you’re making – which is standard here – is looking at conceptualisation (and indeed all AGI) from a position of “omniscience” - FULL AND (damn near) PERFECT KNOWLEDGE – from the POV of s.o. who has already got to know everything there is about, say, patterns or indeed any other category and is now merely getting his thoughts in order to solve the odd further problem. This is how narrow AI operates - s.o. has already worked out all the aspects of solving a rational problem, (like chess), and the programmer has to order and organize them. That’s not AGI – that’s not real life for any real world agent. An AGI works from MINIMAL - EXTREMELY PARTIAL, LIMITED KNOWLEDGE of any given subject - is s.o. who is ***getting to know the world*** - who has to form concepts about the world from v. limited information – and “find his way around the world” as he goes along. You think an AGI is merely a more complex narrow AI – an agent who a la T.S.P. has a complete map of the town or area – and merely has to work out the most efficient routes. An AGI is instead s.o. like you who has to get to know every town or territory as he goes along – and has to be able to find his way around without a map. An AGI is s.o. who can do a CREATIVE task about wh. he knows v. little to begin with – s.o. I can ask, : “go into that room you’ve never been in before, and clear it up...” You don’t start with a full knowledge of all the factors involved. You think AGI is no different from narrow AI – you give your robot beforehand a complete map of that room and every piece of furniture – and, like existing programs, he merely works out the most efficient ways of navigating and stacking the furniture. Hey, we’ve got narrow AI’s that can do that. AGI is about our sending robots into uncharted territory and having them sort things out as they go along – without our having to program their every step beforehand. We want robots that like living creatures can *explore* the world from a v. limited brief and a few at most instructions Only with FULL KNOWLEDGE of the complete set of factors involved in a problem, can there be complexity. AGI always proceeds from MINIMAL KNOWLEDGE about a problem – and nothing like a definitive set of factors, and there is no complexity. As would-be AGI systembuilders here, we are all proceeding from v. partial knowledge of what an AGI machine will entail – zero complexity. Building a mechanical AGI is merely a more difficult form of walking around a new room or field or town, or handling a new object. Rational/narrow ai problems - full knowledge (of the set of factors) & complexity. Creative/AGI problems – minimal knowledge (& no set of factors) & no complexity P.S. “A fundamental assumption made by classical AI planners is that there is no uncertainty in the world; the planner has full knowledge of the conditions under which the plan will be executed.” http://arxiv.org/pdf/cs.AI/9605106.pdf https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=A.I.+%22full+knowledge%22+%22limited+knowledge%22&sugexp=chrome,mod=4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 About 11,500 results AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-c97d2393 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-2484a968 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
