Jim,
I beg to differ. The difference between your thinking and mine, is that you think in abstract, I think in machines that live in the physical world, things that can be built. In Physics, there are principles, laws, and models that work. Sure, models are abstractions, but the point is that they work. The state model of dynamical systems defines entropy and uncertainty precisely, an actual measurement of the energy of information took place only 5 months ago (after 50 years of having been proposed). The entropy of information is well-known in Information Theory. My causal model works. In ultimate analysis, on an AGI blog, work is what really matters, because we have to build it. Sergio This is a lesson I learned from a very good experimental physicist and friend of mine. I had entangled him in a complex net of theory, experiment, conjecture, method, interpretation, prediction. He replied, ultimately, the only thing that matters is that it all works. And this is the secret of Physics. From: Jim Bromer [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 8:09 PM To: AGI Subject: Re: [agi] Pattern: definition & incremental syntax.. P.S. Sergio, That is a good point, but you can't find the answer in a pure abstraction. A precise measure of uncertainty is a confused idea. Yes if we could remove all uncertainty we could find the answers but no one can remove all uncertainty. You cannot make a precise measure of uncertainty and you cannot remove all uncertainty. It seems pretty clear to me. Jim Bromer On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 3:00 PM, Sergio Pissanetzky <[email protected]> wrote: JIM BROMER> The problem is that the complexity of finding every kind of possible pattern in some data is just too great. There are too many possibilities. SERGIO> Then don't. People started trying to do that around 1900, and always reached the same conclusion. That's because it is uncomputable. You have to minimize the functional and remove the entropy, then you'll have recognition. JIM BROMER> That is one example of how the contemporary AGI problem is a complexity issue. SERGIO> Yes, I agree 100%. Complexity is the accumulation of entropy, where entropy=uncertainty. Sergio From: Jim Bromer [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 12:56 PM To: AGI Subject: Re: [agi] Pattern: definition & incremental syntax.. P.S. It is pretty easy to come up with a way for programs to recognize certain kinds of patterns in certain kinds of situations. A computer program could be written to abstract or find abstractions from a number of data storage types. Technically it should be feasible to write a program that could detect a given pattern, if it had enough time, as long as the pattern was not too obscure. The problem with a challenge like this is that it is not really the problem. In AGI, not only does a computer program need to be able to recognize patterns, but it needs to be able to find the important patterns that would allow it to leverage the knowledge that it already had to achieve stronger goals. It is very easy for a program to find some abstractions out of a source of data, but it is impossible for a program to find every possible abstraction (if the source of the data was large enough - and it would not have to be that large). The problem is that the complexity of finding every kind of possible pattern in some data is just too great. There are too many possibilities. That is one example of how the contemporary AGI problem is a complexity issue. Jim Bromer On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Mike Tintner <[email protected]> wrote: "it's pretty easy to come up with ways to do it in a program.You can't see how a pattern is a patterned concept because you don't understand classes, subclasses, and instances." Go ahead - give us a hierarchy of classes for "pattern", & we'll present your program with a pattern and non-pattern or two for recognition. (I think you're totally lost here - we're talking about what is basically visual/sensory object recognition. You/your machine have to be able to recognize a "pattern." You seem to be talking about, basically, database operations). <http://www.listbox.com> <http://www.listbox.com> AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> <http://www.listbox.com> <http://www.listbox.com> AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> <http://www.listbox.com> <http://www.listbox.com> AGI | Archives | Modify Your Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> <http://www.listbox.com> ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-c97d2393 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-2484a968 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
