Another tool of organization in a free market, in addition to competitive ownership, techniques of free cooperation, and solidarity currencies, are stigmergy-based systems, which are really taking off due to software-based approaches in this period of unprecedented low-cost association thanks to the internet.
Heather Marsh's article: http://georgiebc.wordpress.com/2012/12/24/stigmergy-2/ Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmergy Rob On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Aaron Hosford <[email protected]> wrote: > I think there is a lot in common between coordinating people under a > government+economic system to produce intelligent group behavior, vs. > coordinating quasi-intelligent sub-agents under a control+feedback system > to produce an intelligent agent. Whether you have a single algorithm > coordinating countless points of data, or a large population of algorithms > competing, any design sufficiently sophisticated to produce intelligence > will have to coordinate multiple working parts which may not always be in > agreement with each other. Ultimately, it's the Credit Assignment Problem > (which sub-agent's actions at what point in time caused an arbitrary > observed effect) that must be worked out to successfully implement > intelligence, whether you're talking about implementing intelligent > collective human behavior or intelligent software. Steve, if you think the > math has to be worked out before AGI can be produced, this is the place to > start. Camel, if you're going to eliminate the evils of competition in > collective human behavior, this is the problem your alternative system has > to solve better than the existing one. (People will always compete, because > it's in their nature. It's a matter of getting them to do so > constructively, as opposed to trying - and failing - to make them stop.) > > > On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 9:39 AM, Steve Richfield < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Camel, >> >> At present, the frontiers of knowledge are usually pushed back by people >> who are "out of step" with the remainder of society. Your proposal would >> starve them for resources, to fund other "safer" efforts. >> >> Lacking perfect decision making ability, your proposal would devolve into >> a gigantic mediocre committee-driven firehose of money thrown in seemingly >> "safe" directions. >> >> The "missing piece" appears to be the ability to value imperfect >> information. When you "know" something, whether "you" is a single neuron >> within a particular brain or a committee of many brains or something in >> between (like you), how much is the 100% certainty of some piece of >> "knowledge" to be depreciated by the vague understanding that certainty is >> wrong just enough to completely guide evolution and technological >> development, not to mention kill you if you were to completely rely on >> everything being true that you had never seen to be false. >> >> 100% is never 100%, and 0% is never 0%. How could you ever create and >> operate a committee that never completely trusted its own directions? >> >> THESE are the sorts of questions that MUST be answered for your proposal >> to ever succeed. They are important questions, because the innards of an >> AGI will never work well without having some of the answers to this >> question built into them, and we don't now have those answers, which is >> just another barrier to developing useful AGIs in the near future. >> >> Ancient Rome dealt with this my having the Senate elect their best leader >> to be Caesar, to make the big decisions, with the thought that if there >> were any problems, they could simply elect a different Caesar. Of course >> the elected Caesar would use his limitless power to quickly quash the >> possibility of his own removal, so being elected Caesar became in effect a >> lifelong appointment, though their lives were often artificially shortened. >> >> >> Also, there is a serious technical problem with the concept of a "reserve >> currency". If you don't have steady inflation, people tend to stash it >> away, so you have to keep printing more and more to keep enough money in >> circulation. Then, when there is some tiny glitch in the economy, like a >> boom, people start spending their savings, which causes inflation, so more >> people spend their savings, which causes more inflation, which devolves >> into a gigantic hyperinflation spiral. With corporations and governments >> now hoarding many trillions of dollars, we are now poised on the brink of a >> worldwide monetary collapse for just that reason. Inflation is ALWAYS >> there. Your choice is to have a slow controlled inflation, or save it up to >> have it all at once. >> >> >> Your economic discussion parallels some of the AGI discussions. Here is >> something that sounds really good, but the technology to do it isn't yet in >> hand, and if it were, it would probably bring on the end of modern >> civilization. >> >> On the other hand, there might just be a pot of gold at the end of the >> rainbow you now see. I suggest setting my skepticism explained above aside, >> and look really hard to see if you can find a way past the obvious barriers. >> >> Steve >> ==================== >> >> On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 10:53 AM, just camel <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I am talking about a cooperative monetary system not some form of >>> government!? When money is (re)designed so that people cooperate instead to >>> constantly compete then that has nothing to do with a totalitarian state? >>> Once we have a cooperative monetary system we can just produce whatever >>> humanity needs based on maximum (physical) efficiency and sustainability >>> and not based on monetary profit. Corruption, poverty and most types of >>> crime will disappear immediately, we will have the most durable products, >>> we will have access to everything we need without the burden of caring >>> about maintenance work or having things repaired or serviced on a per >>> person basis ... etc, etc, ... i don't see what a totalitatian government >>> has to do with all of this? Actually you would need little government in a >>> cooperative world ... problems would be solved by using a scientific >>> approach instead of a profit oriented approach that always requires >>> regulation and loads of bureaucracy to fight the tendency of the >>> competitive paradigm to get away with least effort and maximum monetary >>> profit, corruption, ecological destruction and the exploitation of people. >>> >>> I really don't get what you are trying to say ... there can never be >>> cooperative governments within a competitive framework ... there can never >>> be real trust within a competitive framework. Ultimately everyone will sell >>> you out/take advantage of you if they have to ... and exponential growing >>> debt will ensure that most people will sooner or later have to do exactly >>> that. We can hit the reset button like we did in the 30es and have the same >>> b*llshit of ecological and social destruction or rethink the destructive >>> rules we have once chosen to impose upon ourselves. >>> >>> I think that if we fail to implement a cooperative society we will get >>> closer and closer to a societal collapse unless some sort of AGI/BCI >>> increases the overall intelligence/rationality of our society (or obsoletes >>> humanity) and thus our ability to limit that tendency of the complex system >>> of our society to disorder. Humanity can only deal with up to a certain >>> level of entropy and will collapse if some threshold is reached ... and as >>> I stated before competition is generating most of that irrelevant entropy >>> that disorders the complex system of humanity. (as said before ... see >>> first part of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDVtxvvRGQI ) >>> >>> >>> >>> On 01/12/2013 05:59 AM, Tim Tyler wrote: >>> >>> On 11/01/2013 00:38, just camel wrote: >>> >>> > explain how cooperation is the key to solve all socioeconomic problems >>> and >>> > how a non competitive monetary system is quite feasible especially >>> with our >>> > today's technology [...] there are hundreds of thousands of people out >>> there >>> > already working on implementing a cooperative monetary system. >>> >>> Cooperation isn't all good. Indeed, many current governments go to >>> considerable pains to ensure that no other large cooperating enties >>> appear within their boundaries and threaten them. That is part of >>> the point of the antitrust laws of The United States and the >>> Monopolies and Mergers act in the U.K. >>> >>> A large cooperative government is known as a "totalitarian" state: >>> >>> "Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against >>> the state." >>> >>> - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism >>> >>> The concept doesn't have a great rep. >>> -- >>> __________ >>> |im |yler http://timtyler.org/ [email protected] Remove lock to reply. >>> >>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/23508161-fa52c03c> | >>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>> >>> >>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10443978-6f4c28ac> | >>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Full employment can be had with the stoke of a pen. Simply institute a >> six hour workday. That will easily create enough new jobs to bring back >> full employment. >> >> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/23050605-2da819ff> | >> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/18769370-bddcdfdc> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
