move to ban azn On 4/5/14, Azn A <[email protected]> wrote: > Matt, I'm just going to come out and say what everyone else is already > thinking. Maybe you're too fucking stupid to understand what I just said? > You obviously have zero imagination. I'm not being abstract here when I say > philosophy improves your thinking. It really DOES do it on the most > physical level. The synaptic connections in your brain restructure > themselves and devote a larger part of themselves to a specific way of > thought. It's how everything works. They've raised an animal so that it > could only see horizontal lines; when it was introduced to vertical ones, > it couldn't see them. The part of your brain that "SEES," is used for the > sense of "touch" in a blind person. They blind folded a non-blind person to > prove this - after a week, that part of her brain, which was active during > sight, was being restructured and was observed to be more active during > touch. And so, it should work the same way with rational abstract thought. > > > On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 4:18 PM, Matt Kruse <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Azn, >> >> I am only trying to understand what you're working on. >> >> You seem like you're in the wrong place if you're rolling your eyes at >> the >> thought of creating an AGI. >> >> Do those on this list a favor and leave so those working on AGI can have >> a >> constructive discussion without being interrupted by nonsense. >> >> Matt Kruse >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 5:52 PM, Azn A <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> "So, the big difference between your web and the current web is having >>> it >>> in a 'more' machine-readable format." >>> >>> Nope. >>> >>> "It seems like it would be easier and more worthwhile to create an AGI >>> that can navigate the current web." >>> >>> Yeah, let's just built AGI!! Nothing is standing in the way of that >>> right? (eyeroll) >>> >>> "Humans seem to be using it fine, why wouldn't an AGI be able to?" >>> >>> In other words, he's asking what's wrong with the horse and buggy. >>> >>> The End. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Matt Kruse <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Azn, >>>> >>>> So, the big difference between your web and the current web is having >>>> it >>>> in a 'more' machine-readable format. >>>> >>>> It seems like it would be easier and more worthwhile to create an AGI >>>> that can navigate the current web. >>>> >>>> Humans seem to be using it fine, why wouldn't an AGI be able to? >>>> >>>> Matt Kruse >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Azn A <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Matt, geniuses like myself aren't afraid to make far out statements >>>>> that change the world. That's why visionaries like me make eye-opening >>>>> discoveries while most people flounder in intellectual darkness, being >>>>> too >>>>> undisciplined and stupid to carry out their own investigations. >>>>> >>>>> Wikipedia is not computable by machines. Machine-readable data is data >>>>> (or metadata) which is in a format that can be understood by current >>>>> computer technology without additional processing. The race is on to >>>>> create >>>>> mobile software agents (virtual assistants) that can perform tasks, or >>>>> services for an individual based on user input, location awareness, and >>>>> the >>>>> ability to access information from a variety of online sources (such >>>>> as >>>>> weather or traffic conditions, news, stock prices, user schedules, >>>>> retail >>>>> prices, etc) and to perform ongoing tasks such as schedule management >>>>> (e.g., sending an alert to a dinner date that a user is running late >>>>> due to >>>>> traffic conditions, update schedules for both parties, and change the >>>>> restaurant reservation time) and personal health management (e.g., >>>>> monitoring caloric intake, heart rate and exercise regimen, then >>>>> making >>>>> recommendations for healthy choices). >>>>> >>>>> However, for all that to happen, we are going to need a new Web that >>>>> bridges the gap between programming and semantic relations. If you've >>>>> ever >>>>> looked at the Google ads that pop up specifically for you, or had a try >>>>> of >>>>> Google Now, you will realize that the predictive powers of AI based on >>>>> computational statistics are extremely limited. They might be able to >>>>> pick >>>>> vaguely the topics/products that are very loosely related to you, but >>>>> they >>>>> are completely unable to pick topics/products that are both related to >>>>> you >>>>> and of interest to you RIGHT NOW. So instead of getting served ads for >>>>> random stuff you don't want, you get served ads for slightly less >>>>> random >>>>> stuff you don't want. >>>>> >>>>> The new Web will be mobile first and computable by machines with >>>>> network awareness which amounts to an engine for processing streams of >>>>> information, classifying them, learning to spot differences, and using >>>>> time-based patterns to make predictions about the future. This is the >>>>> future of advertising. For example, the system may alert the user that >>>>> there is a high risk of pollen exposure on their children's way to >>>>> school >>>>> or alert one of a traffic jam on their regular commute. Much like a >>>>> stock >>>>> ticker or a scrolling update, this approach enables proactive >>>>> information >>>>> services where the users can be notified of relevant information >>>>> without >>>>> the need to be active information seekers. For the old Web stay to >>>>> relevant, a lot of proprietary systems need access to each other's APIs >>>>> and >>>>> a coherence language, and history has shown large technology companies >>>>> tend >>>>> to protect their own patch. They will largely disintegrate into the >>>>> lesser >>>>> Web as as my new Web make everything more coherent and usability goes >>>>> way >>>>> up. There is nothing loony about what I'm saying. The old Web is built >>>>> and >>>>> finance on advertising dollars. What happens when the advertising >>>>> dollars >>>>> go away? It's going to collapse!! >>>>> >>>>> From WWW to GGG: A better Web awaits. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 1:04 PM, Matt Kruse >>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Azn, >>>>>> >>>>>> How does your idea differ from a website like Wikipedia? >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, your phase 1 which involves destroying the internet makes you >>>>>> sound a bit loony ;) >>>>>> >>>>>> Matt Kruse >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 2:49 PM, Azn A >>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> PM, I've already contributed more than enough to this list.. evident >>>>>>> by over 3 private messages (the whole list has 30 people lol). What's >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> point of providing a technical paper anyway? That doesn't seem to >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> helped Ben G... As I have said before, I'm creating a new Web >>>>>>> because the >>>>>>> problems facing AGI are going to take a lot more ideas and resources. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> envision a new Web consisting of maybe 35 Web platforms (as the new >>>>>>> Web >>>>>>> will be one giant database based on my new data model and top maps) >>>>>>> covering local knowledge to science. Once phase 1 is completed >>>>>>> (destruction >>>>>>> of the old fragmented Web), I plan to roll out a Web platform that >>>>>>> directs >>>>>>> AGI research. The system we'll be able to merge all references to a >>>>>>> concept >>>>>>> onto a single topic and you will have access to all the information >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> systems knows about the concept in one place. Researchers will be >>>>>>> able to >>>>>>> integrate their ideas into a greater collection of knowledge and >>>>>>> shared >>>>>>> across the Web. This will allow a single, coherent visual >>>>>>> framework/systematic picture in which users can focus on one or more >>>>>>> concepts and immediately see a conceptual summary of their focus. >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> system will then request scientists, etc to conduct detailed research >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> discover unknown facts about analyzed knowledge. The system would >>>>>>> then put >>>>>>> these facts into the database by itself, even without interaction >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> researchers. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Many major scientific discoveries and breakthroughs have involved >>>>>>> recognizing the connections across domains or integrating insights >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> several sources. In fact, a recent National Science Foundation >>>>>>> report, >>>>>>> "Rebuilding the Mosaic", compiled over 250 white papers from >>>>>>> researchers >>>>>>> calling for more interdisciplinary research. These are not >>>>>>> associations of >>>>>>> words; they are deep insights that involve the actual subject matter >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> these domains. We know that by looking at multiple issues >>>>>>> simultaneously, >>>>>>> we can expand our knowledge and drastically change how we approach >>>>>>> our >>>>>>> common problems. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That's the kind of thing that would get AGI moving forward if done >>>>>>> right. That would also lead to a revolution in science ( >>>>>>> http://science.kqed.org/quest/2011/09/26/the-open-science-movement/) >>>>>>> where Scientists, professional and amateur would have secure profiles >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> could publish ideas quickly and be on record as the first to come up >>>>>>> with >>>>>>> something long before they could get a paper out for peer review. >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> pressure to publish here would come not from the science greats but >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> the fringe. If some group of amateurs starts using their collective >>>>>>> brains >>>>>>> to start mapping out ideas in your area of expertise, you better get >>>>>>> all of >>>>>>> your work out in the daylight or they will steal your thunder. Any >>>>>>> ideas >>>>>>> you post to someone else' page are there on record, so your part is >>>>>>> known >>>>>>> to all. In the past you could have one genius pushing our >>>>>>> understanding >>>>>>> because a lot wasn't known. Today, progress is a lot more incremental >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> departmental ... One guy spends 5 years and through trial and error >>>>>>> he >>>>>>> makes a small discovery. It takes time before other researches >>>>>>> integrate >>>>>>> his discovery into their thought and put it to use because everything >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> too fragmented and fucked up. The possibilities are endless here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's your AGI idea again? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 12:15 PM, Piaget Modeler < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Azzz-n, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please provide a link to one technical paper you've written, or one >>>>>>>> working AI or AGI program, or one book you've authored. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'll even take a blog post on A(G)I, for that matter. >>>>>>>> If you have nothing solid to contribute to this list, just go >>>>>>>> away... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (Debating whether or not to add "until you do".) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ~PM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 11:23:03 -0700 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AGI] Jeff Hawkins says 2014 is the year ! >>>>>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "If you know anything about progress, you know you must try all the >>>>>>>> ways something doesn't work before you stumble upon the way(s) that >>>>>>>> work. >>>>>>>> Could take 50 years, could take 5,000." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't need to try 20 different cups with holes in them to know >>>>>>>> they are all going to leak! Just like I can go back 30 years and >>>>>>>> tell you >>>>>>>> AGI isn't a math problem! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 9:15 AM, Piaget Modeler < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I like hippies, they're generally non-violent. They wear peace >>>>>>>> signs. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you know anything about progress, you know you must try all the >>>>>>>> ways >>>>>>>> something doesn't work before you stumble upon the way(s) that >>>>>>>> work. >>>>>>>> Could take 50 years, could take 5,000. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ~PM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2014 02:19:19 -0700 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AGI] Jeff Hawkins says 2014 is the year ! >>>>>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Why do find healthy, powerful and ascending life unpleasant PM? >>>>>>>> Humility is for the weak, sick and on the decline. Brave, >>>>>>>> unconcerned, >>>>>>>> mocking, violent--thus wisdom wants us: she is a woman and always >>>>>>>> loves only >>>>>>>> a warrior. AGI is not going to fall into your laps hippie. Just look >>>>>>>> at all >>>>>>>> the failed attempts going back 50 plus years. If you want real >>>>>>>> thinking >>>>>>>> machines, you're going to have to fight for it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 8:25 PM, Piaget Modeler < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We'll All African's aren't Black . That's for sure. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And you, my friend, come off more as Obnoxious than Black. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That's for sure, too. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Try a little humility. It may go a very long way. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ~PM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 11:38:02 -0700 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AGI] Jeff Hawkins says 2014 is the year ! >>>>>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Pm, according to this 23andMe ancestry composition. I'm 57% >>>>>>>> African, >>>>>>>> 19% Ashkenazi, 18% Persian and 5% Native American. In other words, >>>>>>>> I'm >>>>>>>> kool, smart and sexy. Just think of a younger, smarter version of >>>>>>>> Barack >>>>>>>> Obama :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't think AGI is impossible. Ben G has some good Ideas. So do a >>>>>>>> lot of people. But they are missing pieces here and there. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 7:44 AM, Piaget Modeler < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> @ [the big] Azzzz, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You're not Black. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> #1- Black people use capital B's to describe themselves; >>>>>>>> #2 - they prefer to use the words "African" or "African-American" >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> Black; >>>>>>>> #3 - they don't define themselves by their ability to use >>>>>>>> expletives; and finally >>>>>>>> #4 - they know that spelling cool with a k isn't. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So I'd appreciate you being yourself, and being real. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You're reminding me a lot of Mike Tintner--only he said AGI >>>>>>>> couldn't >>>>>>>> be done because >>>>>>>> it is impossible, no one will ever know how. Now you're saying AGI >>>>>>>> can't be done >>>>>>>> because other people currently don't know how, but you do. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Omoshiroi... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ~PM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>> Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2014 01:10:46 -0700 >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [AGI] Jeff Hawkins says 2014 is the year ! >>>>>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "I'm not sure I'd drop so many f-bombs" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That's because you're not black or kool like me ;). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 3:51 PM, Sergio Donal >>>>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I also read it several years ago and do not remember pretty much >>>>>>>> either, but the thought that comes to my mind is that he was >>>>>>>> speaking that >>>>>>>> we are basically predicting the environment, either spatially, >>>>>>>> temporally >>>>>>>> or any other feature. So prediction is a form of "completion the >>>>>>>> scene" and >>>>>>>> there is where creativity comes up, we predict the current scene >>>>>>>> based in >>>>>>>> our past observations (and completions) but since the scene may be >>>>>>>> new, we >>>>>>>> are applying past experience to solve new problems. Or something >>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>> that... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Now I realize, doesn't this sound kind of Bayesian? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 11:28 PM, Mike Archbold >>>>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm not sure I'd drop so many f-bombs, but I had the feeling he's >>>>>>>> got >>>>>>>> a good compression/pattern match overall command scheme, and not >>>>>>>> math-heavy to boot, but not sure if he's got the ability to solve >>>>>>>> general problems. In other words, what is the processing structure >>>>>>>> for solving problems? I've read On Intelligence, 10 years ago, but >>>>>>>> have at present only a superficial understanding of his approach. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 4/3/14, Azn A <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> > He doesn't have is a fully temporal semantic database structure >>>>>>>> with a >>>>>>>> > generative normalization pattern matcher/vectorized scale free >>>>>>>> calculation >>>>>>>> > minimizer... I.e. the G in AGI. In other words, he's missing the >>>>>>>> minimal >>>>>>>> > concept basis for processing that has an optimal scalability >>>>>>>> > while >>>>>>>> > minimizing complexity, without that it's a crap shoot if someone >>>>>>>> will ever >>>>>>>> > succeed in making a better than human level AGI that isn't just >>>>>>>> brute >>>>>>>> > forcing human intelligence by putting too much human knowledge in >>>>>>>> a system >>>>>>>> > and claiming it is better than human level intelligence while it >>>>>>>> > is >>>>>>>> > actually less than human level due to a complete lack of >>>>>>>> creativity. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > Even worse, the deepest problem that nobody ever thinks about is >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> > knowledge representation system... they all have static/fragile >>>>>>>> designs, >>>>>>>> > Hawkins' products are really bad even in the sorta neural-net >>>>>>>> > form >>>>>>>> he has >>>>>>>> > is fucking self-crippling in the number of associations that can >>>>>>>> be built >>>>>>>> > up. I've never seen a fucking neural-network capable of >>>>>>>> self-reflection and >>>>>>>> > differentiation, among many other conceptual paradoxical forms >>>>>>>> humans have >>>>>>>> > no problems thinking about.. >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Mike Archbold >>>>>>>> > <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> >> Long article, but interesting. It sounds like he's built the >>>>>>>> input >>>>>>>> >> but not the output, the motor control. I don't think there is >>>>>>>> >> any >>>>>>>> >> convincing argument about what paradigms to use for strong AI / >>>>>>>> AGI >>>>>>>> >> since there isn't a working such thing yet. Some math-first >>>>>>>> >> approaches seem like they want to lose you with the formula, >>>>>>>> otherwise >>>>>>>> >> I like math.... >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> On 4/3/14, John Rose <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >> > You don't have enough math here. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > People are now looking more at the mathematical formalisms of >>>>>>>> software >>>>>>>> >> > systems. There are so many and of such variety. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > Hawkins has one approach not the only approach. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > He's hardcoding the components mimicked from biological >>>>>>>> intelligence. >>>>>>>> >> > Are >>>>>>>> >> > there more efficient and easier to build components and are >>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>> >> > components >>>>>>>> >> > that morph? His don't morph. It looks to me like hardcoded AI >>>>>>>> BUT I >>>>>>>> >> haven't >>>>>>>> >> > studied the system. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > John >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > From: Azn A [mailto:[email protected]] >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/03/29/hawkins_ai_feature >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > "These are complex biological systems that were not designed >>>>>>>> >> > by >>>>>>>> >> > mathematical >>>>>>>> >> > principles [that are] very difficult to formalize completely," >>>>>>>> he told >>>>>>>> >> us. >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > "This reminds me a bit of the beginning of the computer era," >>>>>>>> he said. >>>>>>>> >> "If >>>>>>>> >> > you go back to the 1930s and early 1940s, when people first >>>>>>>> started >>>>>>>> >> > thinking >>>>>>>> >> > about computers they were really interested in whether an >>>>>>>> algorithm >>>>>>>> >> > would >>>>>>>> >> > complete, and they were looking for mathematical completeness, >>>>>>>> >> > a >>>>>>>> >> > mathematical proof. If you today build a computer, no one sits >>>>>>>> around >>>>>>>> >> > saying >>>>>>>> >> > 'let's look at the mathematical formalism of this computer.' >>>>>>>> >> > It >>>>>>>> reminds >>>>>>>> >> me >>>>>>>> >> > a >>>>>>>> >> > little about that. We still have people saying 'You don't have >>>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>> >> math >>>>>>>> >> > here!' >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > AGI | <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>>>>>> Archives >>>>>>>> >> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/248029-3b178a58> >>>>>>>> | >>>>>>>> >> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> >>>>>>>> >> > Modify Your Subscription >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > <http://www.listbox.com> >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > >>>>>>>> >> > ------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> >> > AGI >>>>>>>> >> > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>>>>>>> >> > RSS Feed: >>>>>>>> >> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/11943661-d9279dae >>>>>>>> >> > Modify Your Subscription: >>>>>>>> >> > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>>>>>> >> > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>>>>>> >> > 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