For background on mind uploading, see -- a journal special issue I edited on the topic in 2012, http://wp.goertzel.org/special-issue-on-mind-uploading/ ... many of the papers are free online in preprint versions
-- a recent book dissecting the issues very thoroughly, http://www.amazon.com/Taxonomy-Metaphysics-Mind-Uploading-Keith-Wiley-ebook/dp/B00NJZHGM8 -- various talks and materials by Randal Koene, http://www.carboncopies.org/ Mind uploading is ofc quite different from AGI, though I would suppose if mind uploading were achieved it would lead rapidly to AGI via all we would learn from studying the structures and dynamics of uploaded minds... -- Ben On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 4:31 AM, Piaget Modeler via AGI <[email protected]> wrote: > Do uploaders actually think their consciousness will continue in the > machine, > or do they believe their physical bodies will die, but a computer program > of > them will continue? I am confused. > > Why upload, when you can pursue immortality instead? I guess a scene from > the last Superman installment may answer my question. Superman's father > uploaded himself into the spaceship and was able to assist his son as a > hologram. > Perhaps it can be useful, after death. > > ~PM > > > > Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 21:10:26 +0100 > > From: [email protected] > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [agi] [offtopic] The GOERTZEL's latest publication. > > > > > One of the first things an AGI might tell us is that the concepts of > > cryonics and uploading are fundamentally flawed because they are based > > on the assumption that consciousness is a byproduct of the brain. It's > > weird to assume that a subset of something can somehow represent or > > preserve the superset? > > > > On 27.12.2014 18:25, Alan Grimes via AGI wrote: > > > I read a goodly chunk of that 10 years to the singularity pile of text > > > that The Goertzel pushed out the other day. > > > > > > In it, he threatened to upload all of his "friends"... > > > > > > > > > I want to be perfectly clear here. I am not one of your "friends". I > > > think being uploaded is only second worst to being tortured and then > > > murdered, but only because of the "tortured" part. > > > > > > > > > I'm posting this not just because I'm fed up with this bullshit, but > > > also because I'm coming to a new realization that uploaders are a bunch > > > of suicidal flatheads. =| > > > > > > The single unavoidable issue in uploading is the identity issue. That > > > alone is a showstopper and should end any further consideration of the > > > topic. Interestingly, I have noticed something extremely peculiar in > the > > > last few exchanges. ** THE UPLOADERS THEMSELVES SEEM TO WANT TO DIRECT > > > THE DEBATE TOWARDS THE IDENTITY ISSUE!!! ** > > > > > > The reason for this is that the uploaders seem to want to confine the > > > intellectual battle space to a zone that they can manage, but not > really > > > win. > > > > > > Their problem is that nothing about uploading makes any sense and that > > > any dispassionate examination of the "post-upload" condition will > reveal > > > absolutely devastating problems that can only be avoided by not > > > examining them and by directing the attention to already active battle > > > spaces. > > > > > > No upload can possibly exist outside of a runtime environment > equivalent > > > to an operating system. No matter how hard you try to obscure this, or > > > bullshit it away like Eugene Leitl does, this this is an absolute fact. > > > > > > Furthermore, because a person is catagorically dead very early in the > > > uploaded process, said person has absolutely no control over what kind > > > of alterations or "restraining bolts" are added to the runtime > > > environment. None whatsoever! The being doing the uploading procedure > is > > > therefore all-powerful and the eager victim of this procedure is a > > > fucking flathead and desirves whatever he gets. > > > > > > This is an inescapable truth. There is no law or safeguard that can > > > possible protect the upload because the means for arbitrary tampering > > > can evade any conceivable effort to police the procedure. Again, there > > > is no rational reason to continue contemplating uploading. > > > > > > > > > The second issue I want to cover here is this notion of the persona. I > > > don't really understand it much but, according to the rothblat-creature > > > it seems to be the summation of the affectations and charactoristics > > > exhibited by the quirks of your neurology. The motivation for caring > > > about persona seems to come from strong emotions that some people > > > experience from their attachment systems. > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attachment_theory > > > > > > The thing to pay double-special close attention to here is that the way > > > uploaders describe and promote "personalities"/"persona" etc. When you > > > think about it for more than a few microseconds, you realize that what > > > they are describing is a *TRAP*. They are proposing to trap your > persona > > > in something metaphorically equivalent to amber for the benefit of > their > > > own attachment emotions and nothing else. Because the person being > > > uploaded dies in the process, that person receives no benefit, instead > > > the language of people promoting uploading frequently make references > to > > > the preservation of attachment relationships. This is one of the > central > > > keys to uploading. They want to reduce you from a being that lives for > > > itself to one that exists only to satisfy their own emotional needs to > > > be with people they are used to being with. As such, the runtime > > > environments for uploads will be designed specifically so that they > > > continue to exhibit the traits that trigger the attachment response in > > > the person doing the uploading and thus will not be permitted to be > > > self-specifying self-designing self-actualizing sentient beings that > > > they deserve to be. > > > > > > > > > But wait, I'm not quite ready to press the button yet! Here's a little > > > tidbit for those few of you with some measurable curvature to your > > > skulls. What I am getting at is philosophy. What is it that makes a > > > person? How exactly is a person put together? Why do people have > > > distinct minds or personalities to begin with? > > > > > > Humans have minds because their DNA required a higher level of > > > patterning to the behavior of the meat-pupets that the DNA needs to > > > replicate. That is why minds exist. The mind functions by capturing the > > > external environment in the form of a simulation which, simultaneously, > > > constitutes a language that can be used for reason, memory, and all the > > > other thinky-goodness that we get out of our brains. Running a > > > simulation engine within a simulation and then closing the feedback > loop > > > will have -- um -- interesting effects.... > > > > > > But let's continue. What we call personality is not inherently > valuable. > > > It is merely an implementation quirk of the imperfect implementation of > > > the biological mind and a function of that mind's experiences and > > > proclivities. You may have heard "great minds think alike". What > happens > > > when everyone's minds quirks are ironed out to some arguably objective > > > measure of perfection? The answer is simple: the "personality" vanishes > > > and you get a billion instances of a standard human mind, sure they > will > > > each have unique memories and experiences but they won't really be > > > unique in any interesting respect. > > > > > > What happens next? You see, the reason we have distinct minds at all is > > > because our brains are separated from one another by a dozen or so > > > layers of tissues, scalp, hair, several or more feet of air, and there > > > is basically no bandwidth between brains. > > > But what happens when you force everyone to exist within the same > > > platform? One of two things will inevitably happen. Either you will > > > enforce separation for the sake of preserving the much-cherished > > > personality as above or you will witness a stunning phase change as > > > inter-mindfile bandwidth, almost inevitably, shoots up exponentially > and > > > the minds congeal into a new superstructure. The reason for this > > > shouldn't be too hard to picture. Early experimentation with inter-mind > > > connections will cause the minds involved to adapt to be co-dependent > > > (this is simply an extension of the adaptive processes one finds > between > > > the several parts of a natural brain and even in close family > > > relationships or friendships). This will happen before anyone realizes > > > it is happening, I would be surprised if it would take longer than a > > > subjective week for this process to occur. > > > > > > I am not saying that this is necessarily bad, what I'm saying is that > > > you are fucking flatheads for not realizing it will happen and are > > > suffering from profound delusions about what it is you are proposing to > > > do. =| > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------- > > AGI > > Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now > > RSS Feed: > https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/19999924-4a978ccc > > Modify Your Subscription: > https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; > > Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/212726-deec6279> | Modify > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> > Your Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> > -- Ben Goertzel, PhD http://goertzel.org "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
