Steve, yes, I didn't realize there was anyone that believed that the Abrahamic testatements were written by anything but a bunch of contemporary humans, typically scribing down events retold. It's pretty obvious if you read it... It's just a bunch of stories. Some with morals.
Personally I'm a Quantum Animist, and thus Omni-Faith, Religions are as powerful as the collection of their believers, the collective beliefs are animate in and of themselves, both physical and spiritual forms play them out. Science is the art of discovering what the cosmos believes about itself. Even atheists thus are believers, they believe a limited set of what science has thus far uncovered. For your convenience, lets hypothesize that spiritual refers to an overlaying quantum world, which is our dark-energy/matter. Thing is, that while we don't yet have much means of detecting it via machines, that I'm aware of. A few hundred years ago we had no way of recording sight/sound, however that didn't mean that there was no sight or sound. Of course for the benefit of our AGI, it would be best to tap into this spiritual quantum background. It would be nice if we could remote-view using something as solid as a computer, or perhaps even read/play the akashic records. Considering that this spiritual element, which we already have human scientific evidence for, is not yet a part of our machines, does mean that complete AGI, capable of all the things a water-based machine is able, is still quite a ways off. Decades at least. Though I have a hope that once quantum processors start to scale up, then it will become more practical to detect and interact with "dark" or spiritual energy and matter. Wondering at the stars, Logan On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 6:17 AM, Steve Richfield <[email protected]> wrote: > Telmo, > > On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 7:23 PM, Steve Richfield < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Telmo, >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 6:23 AM, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Steve Richfield < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Logan, >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 8:50 AM, Logan Streondj <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Cosmism seems to be the religion espoused by top tier AGI >>>>>> researchers. >>>>>> Namely Ben Goertzel and Hugo De Garis, though some others have also >>>>>> written books about Cosmism recently. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Create-your-own God. Myself, I prefer our present godless world. >>>>> Heaven would be SUCH a drag. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I've always felt my life path was to be a spiritual leader, >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Spiritual has to do with what can NOT be presently proven false. >>>>> >>>> >>>> How do you categorize things that are proved to be unprovable (e.g. by >>>> Gödel's incompleteness, a formal system cannot prove its own consistency, >>>> and I would say this includes the human mind), or uncomputable (e.g. the >>>> halting problem)? >>>> >>> >>> You missed my point. While there are MANY things that can NOT be proven >>> to be TRUE, there are also MANY things that CAN be proven to be FALSE. Most >>> importantly, that present religious writings of ALL current religions are >>> NOT the product of an omnipotent benevolent God. My proof ONLY covers this >>> particular point and does NOT address whether any religious writings are >>> the product on a demonic God, Aliens, creative people, etc. >>> >> >> I am not defending religion, I am not religious myself. >> >> What I worry about is that you are a bit too quick with the word "proof". >> My view is that only mathematical trues are provable. >> > > Proving things is usually difficult. Disproving things is usually pretty > easy, as all that is needed is a counterexample. In my case, a single > example of something that transcends a religious writing debunks its source > as God. I have several such examples. > > >> Science deals in empiricism, where we have theories and evidence >> for/against these theories. >> >> In fact, I strongly dislike religion, this is way I am weary of this >> business of "scientific proof" pitted against religion. And when you >> gaze long into an abyss the abyss also, etc etc >> >> >>> >>> On a side note; in 1994 I was sold into indentured servitude in Saudi >>> Arabia. To escape I had to LEARN the Quran - well enough to engage in >>> discussions/arguments with experts regarding details therein. I needed a >>> good central presumption so I could scan for anything that violated that >>> presumption, rather than trying to learn the entire book from scratch in >>> just a few days. The presumption that worked for me was that it was written >>> by a VERY creative social engineer who was addressing problems of 1400 >>> years ago, like people eating their children when they ran out of food, >>> rather than our present-day problems. >>> >> >> Wow, this is a very interesting story. How did that happen to you? >> > > Lear Siegler in Saudi Arabia offered me a computer system design job. > There was one funny clause in the contract, to the effect that there is a > particular drawer in a particular filing cabinet that contains > modifications to the contract. So, I asked for a copy of the contents of > the drawer. I was told that was a standard clause in all Saudi contracts > and that the drawer was empty, and further, that it was impossible to > modify the contract in any way because it was the result of international > negotiations. So, I accepted the job and off I went. > > When I got there I discovered that there were several Lear Siegler > corporations, and the one I was working for was NOT the same as the one in > the U.S.. The drawer contained an entire system of subjugated labor. All of > the design work had been completed 5 years before my arrival. They just > needed someone to chase bugs under BAD conditions. The pay was OK, but > there were guys with Uzi's to keep guys like me from leaving - and still, > most managed to somehow escape. > > I was pissed - so I decided to be the first to leave through the front > door, rather than sneaking out of this well guarded Kingdom. It's a long > story, but I used THEIR system to not only leave, but be paid an additional > $4K in addition to my pay for my inconvenience. Negotiations were a bit > intense, e.g. a Saudi uniformed Major so scared he was visibly shaking. > They take this stuff seriously. This might make a good movie. > >> >> >>> >>> Note here that it is *especially* difficult to prove something TRUE >>> when it is in fact FALSE. Religions have been stating that their >>> propositions are unproveable for millennia as a device for attracting >>> devotees - but apparently I am the first to work on proving them FALSE. The >>> proofs are pretty simple - just look for present-day knowledge that is >>> obviously MORE important than anything in present religions, AND that could >>> still be taught to a primitive person of 2,000 years ago. There are several >>> such things. Then, ask yourself why an omnipotent benevolent God would >>> choose to omit such material if he knew it. Two of these things clearly >>> should have come from Jesus as better ways of addressing conflict, but for >>> some inexplicable reason (if you think there was a God involved in this) >>> Jesus never said them. One of them actually WAS said by Mohammad - who then >>> failed to realize the value of what he had as a means of debunking the >>> Bible, which points the finger of doubt in BOTH directions. >>> >> >> I don't disagree with you about any of this. >> > > What? Why? > >> >> >>> >>> So, Gödel was right that religions are unproveable, but NOT for the >>> reasons he imagined. >>> >> >> On the contrary, he even worked on a proof for the existence of god: >> >> >> http://braungardt.trialectics.com/mathematics/mathematicians/kurt-godel/existence-of-god/ >> > > You are confusing God and various religions that have various books that > they claim are words from God, words inspired by God, etc. My proof says > NOTHING about the existence of God, only about the potential authorship of > various religious writings. > >> >> >> >>> They are unprovably true BECAUSE they are provably FALSE. >>> >> >> >> Some things are provably false, sure. For example, god cannot be >> omniscient and man have free will at the same time. That is provably false >> because it is a logical contradiction. >> > > That is quite close to my proof - that a super-intelligent God wouldn't > leave out things that are considerably more important than what he/she is > saying - another logical contradiction. > > Steve > ============= > > >> Most things are not provably anything though --- they are just very >> unlikely, given the evidence. This is an important distinction if we are to >> keep a scientific stance. >> >> Telmo. >> >> >>> >>> Steve >>> ================ >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Now that there are solid proofs that present religions like Judaism, >>>>> Christianity, and Islam are false, some people look to AGI. Of course once >>>>> constructed, AGI will no longer be a religion - it will be technology. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> and I'm rather interested in the PR of AGI. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What are the bounds on what you call AGI? Does this include uploading? >>>>> Downloading? Enhancement of individuals (like you and me) to full AGI >>>>> capability? Etc? >>>>> >>>>> Unless you have thought out these questions VERY carefully - MUCH more >>>>> carefully than the people you now cite, PR will bring disaster to AGI as >>>>> others with different opinions react in unfortunate ways. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Having a strong group of people that share the vision of beneficial >>>>>> AGI future, is conducive to good legislation and funding. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No, the most likely result would be legislation AGAINST a potential >>>>> world-ending technology. Just like bathroom atomic experimentation is now >>>>> illegal, AGI research would become illegal. >>>>> >>>>> However, if you were to "succeed" in attracting "good" legislation and >>>>> funding, you would then be up against the situation that SO many have >>>>> written about - that there are countless ways that an AGI could destroy us >>>>> all, and NO viable approach to protect us from that - leading to our >>>>> eventual doom no matter WHAT we did to delay/avoid that end. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Turing Church and some Transhumanist associations seem to be what is >>>>>> available. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What is REALLY needed is a leader pulling people to a more tractable >>>>> path. There is WAY too much that is presently unknown about how we work to >>>>> ever program a computer to emulate it, or even understand it, even with >>>>> limitless intelligence. >>>>> >>>>> The one shining light I see is to concentrate on technologies leading >>>>> to downloading - which is why I have put so much effort into a >>>>> super-microscope capable of diagramming brains. My hope is that >>>>> downloading >>>>> outruns the current misdirected wave of people trying to program computers >>>>> to think, so PEOPLE remain in charge, rather than a new specie of computer >>>>> that has NO interest beyond simple curiosity in our preservation. >>>>> >>>>> In short, given the presence of hazards like Ben and Hugo, downloading >>>>> becomes MUCH more than "just" about living forever or making LOTS of >>>>> money. >>>>> It becomes about saving the human race from the AGI that some fools on >>>>> this >>>>> forum seek to build. >>>>> >>>>> Steve >>>>> ============= >>>>> >>>>>> tfgrq >>>>>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10443978-6f4c28ac> | >>>>>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Full employment can be had with the stoke of a pen. Simply institute a >>>>> six hour workday. That will easily create enough new jobs to bring back >>>>> full employment. >>>>> >>>>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/25129130-ee4f7d55> | >>>>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>>> >>>> >>>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10443978-6f4c28ac> | >>>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Full employment can be had with the stoke of a pen. Simply institute a >>> six hour workday. That will easily create enough new jobs to bring back >>> full employment. >>> >>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/25129130-ee4f7d55> | >>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>> >> >> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10443978-6f4c28ac> | >> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> > > > > -- > Full employment can be had with the stoke of a pen. Simply institute a six > hour workday. That will easily create enough new jobs to bring back full > employment. > > *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/5037279-a88c7a6d> | Modify > <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> > Your Subscription <http://www.listbox.com> > ------------------------------------------- AGI Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/21088071-f452e424 Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=21088071&id_secret=21088071-58d57657 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
