On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 7:23 PM, Steve Richfield <[email protected]> wrote:
> Telmo, > > On Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 6:23 AM, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Steve Richfield < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Logan, >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 8:50 AM, Logan Streondj <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Cosmism seems to be the religion espoused by top tier AGI researchers. >>>> Namely Ben Goertzel and Hugo De Garis, though some others have also >>>> written books about Cosmism recently. >>>> >>> >>> Create-your-own God. Myself, I prefer our present godless world. Heaven >>> would be SUCH a drag. >>> >>>> >>>> I've always felt my life path was to be a spiritual leader, >>>> >>> >>> Spiritual has to do with what can NOT be presently proven false. >>> >> >> How do you categorize things that are proved to be unprovable (e.g. by >> Gödel's incompleteness, a formal system cannot prove its own consistency, >> and I would say this includes the human mind), or uncomputable (e.g. the >> halting problem)? >> > > You missed my point. While there are MANY things that can NOT be proven to > be TRUE, there are also MANY things that CAN be proven to be FALSE. Most > importantly, that present religious writings of ALL current religions are > NOT the product of an omnipotent benevolent God. My proof ONLY covers this > particular point and does NOT address whether any religious writings are > the product on a demonic God, Aliens, creative people, etc. > I am not defending religion, I am not religious myself. What I worry about is that you are a bit too quick with the word "proof". My view is that only mathematical trues are provable. Science deals in empiricism, where we have theories and evidence for/against these theories. In fact, I strongly dislike religion, this is way I am weary of this business of "scientific proof" pitted against religion. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also, etc etc > > On a side note; in 1994 I was sold into indentured servitude in Saudi > Arabia. To escape I had to LEARN the Quran - well enough to engage in > discussions/arguments with experts regarding details therein. I needed a > good central presumption so I could scan for anything that violated that > presumption, rather than trying to learn the entire book from scratch in > just a few days. The presumption that worked for me was that it was written > by a VERY creative social engineer who was addressing problems of 1400 > years ago, like people eating their children when they ran out of food, > rather than our present-day problems. > Wow, this is a very interesting story. How did that happen to you? > > Note here that it is *especially* difficult to prove something TRUE when > it is in fact FALSE. Religions have been stating that their propositions > are unproveable for millennia as a device for attracting devotees - but > apparently I am the first to work on proving them FALSE. The proofs are > pretty simple - just look for present-day knowledge that is obviously MORE > important than anything in present religions, AND that could still be > taught to a primitive person of 2,000 years ago. There are several such > things. Then, ask yourself why an omnipotent benevolent God would choose to > omit such material if he knew it. Two of these things clearly should have > come from Jesus as better ways of addressing conflict, but for some > inexplicable reason (if you think there was a God involved in this) Jesus > never said them. One of them actually WAS said by Mohammad - who then > failed to realize the value of what he had as a means of debunking the > Bible, which points the finger of doubt in BOTH directions. > I don't disagree with you about any of this. > > So, Gödel was right that religions are unproveable, but NOT for the > reasons he imagined. > On the contrary, he even worked on a proof for the existence of god: http://braungardt.trialectics.com/mathematics/mathematicians/kurt-godel/existence-of-god/ > They are unprovably true BECAUSE they are provably FALSE. > Some things are provably false, sure. For example, god cannot be omniscient and man have free will at the same time. That is provably false because it is a logical contradiction. Most things are not provably anything though --- they are just very unlikely, given the evidence. This is an important distinction if we are to keep a scientific stance. Telmo. > > Steve > ================ > >> >> >>> Now that there are solid proofs that present religions like Judaism, >>> Christianity, and Islam are false, some people look to AGI. Of course once >>> constructed, AGI will no longer be a religion - it will be technology. >>> >>> >>>> and I'm rather interested in the PR of AGI. >>>> >>> >>> What are the bounds on what you call AGI? Does this include uploading? >>> Downloading? Enhancement of individuals (like you and me) to full AGI >>> capability? Etc? >>> >>> Unless you have thought out these questions VERY carefully - MUCH more >>> carefully than the people you now cite, PR will bring disaster to AGI as >>> others with different opinions react in unfortunate ways. >>> >>> >>>> Having a strong group of people that share the vision of beneficial AGI >>>> future, is conducive to good legislation and funding. >>>> >>> >>> No, the most likely result would be legislation AGAINST a potential >>> world-ending technology. Just like bathroom atomic experimentation is now >>> illegal, AGI research would become illegal. >>> >>> However, if you were to "succeed" in attracting "good" legislation and >>> funding, you would then be up against the situation that SO many have >>> written about - that there are countless ways that an AGI could destroy us >>> all, and NO viable approach to protect us from that - leading to our >>> eventual doom no matter WHAT we did to delay/avoid that end. >>> >>>> >>>> Turing Church and some Transhumanist associations seem to be what is >>>> available. >>>> >>> >>> What is REALLY needed is a leader pulling people to a more tractable >>> path. There is WAY too much that is presently unknown about how we work to >>> ever program a computer to emulate it, or even understand it, even with >>> limitless intelligence. >>> >>> The one shining light I see is to concentrate on technologies leading to >>> downloading - which is why I have put so much effort into a >>> super-microscope capable of diagramming brains. My hope is that downloading >>> outruns the current misdirected wave of people trying to program computers >>> to think, so PEOPLE remain in charge, rather than a new specie of computer >>> that has NO interest beyond simple curiosity in our preservation. >>> >>> In short, given the presence of hazards like Ben and Hugo, downloading >>> becomes MUCH more than "just" about living forever or making LOTS of money. >>> It becomes about saving the human race from the AGI that some fools on this >>> forum seek to build. >>> >>> Steve >>> ============= >>> >>>> tfgrq >>>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10443978-6f4c28ac> | >>>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Full employment can be had with the stoke of a pen. Simply institute a >>> six hour workday. That will easily create enough new jobs to bring back >>> full employment. >>> >>> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/25129130-ee4f7d55> | >>> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>> >> >> *AGI* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/10443978-6f4c28ac> | >> Modify <https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;> Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> > > > > -- > Full employment can be had with the stoke of a pen. Simply institute a six > hour workday. 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