Logan,
I feel the same about confrontation (no surprise I expect) and sometimes
promote opposing views to my own in order to have fun, primarily by flexing the
argument muscles, but also to potentially work through the arguments in order
to see if I've got it wrong.
I don't think I was being vague in any sense. Part of the reason for the
length of the post was to try and explain objectively my reasons for making the
preceding posts. I think they are pretty clear. Please explain what
statements (other than the one you quoted I'm about to respond to, presumably)
were vague.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure I'm on solid ground here criticising these statements, which are
"arrogant statements that assert an understanding of reality on some 'deep' level
that has no objective evidence for it"?
1)
Who was Jesus? A conscious entity which understood the nature of reality much
better than most of the other contemporary conscious entities.
2)
All those horribly biased expectations stem from a lack of understanding of the
nature of reality.
3)
I am still waiting for Bostrom to incorporate consciousness as the driving force into his
model of reality though ... that would be a gigantic leap as it would become clear that
AGI does not have any reason to adopt our very limited, contemporary worldview
considering there are hundreds of books out there explaining said "Truth" using
a million different analogies and metaphors.
And that's just one paragraph. I don't think I'm misquoting. It is hard to
miss. Fish and barrels come to mind.
4)
I don't know what you mean with "prophet" but all Jesus did was to show us that
we are not our biological embodiments.
5)
A higher IQ does _not_ help you with realizing this.
Well, it is consistent within the world view, I guess, but there are other
possible explanations why belief in these ideas correlates negatively with IQ,
if indeed this is true.
6)
A higher IQ often turns you into a highly respected academic, etc. who
understands many aspects of the game but who does not care to understand the
nature of the game itself. Most of contemporary academia consists of people
from the former group.
Not strictly a whacky idea about the nature of reality but surely tautological
and offered in support of the preceding arguments.
7)
Spiritual enlightenment or "waking up" is a somewhat singular process and no
local attribute of your embodiment (intelligence, status, wealth, etc.) will help you. If
we want to understand AGI then we have to realize that AGI will know about all of this
and that it will act accordingly.
I mean, what? We (the entire human species, presumably, most of whom don't hold these
views, although I'm all for (honestly) minority opinions in terms of ethical equality,
say, so you don't end up thinking I just value the common belief over the minority view)
have to realize that AGI will say, "you know what, this otherwise unprovable
hypothesis concerning the nature of reality is the only right one" because,
presumably, consciousness, is somehow an integral component of reality?? Really? It is
there (if you can define it - I can't) as an experiential phenomenon, OK, but it is a bit
much to think the universe cares whether any cares whether it cares.
I think that makes my points clear.
Thanks,
Colin.
On Mar 16, 2016, at 08:01 AM, Logan Streondj <[email protected]> wrote:
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Colin,
I'm not sure who you are arguing with.
Personally I love confrontation, it is an opportunity to grow.
However your statements seem rather vague, and frankly "wishy-washy".
Like can you give quoted example of
"arrogant statements that assert an understanding of reality on some
'deep' level that has no objective evidence for it"?
Anyways, I guess I'll post another thread regarding my views on
Buddhism and how that relates to transhumanism.
Feel free to explain what parts don't make sense to you,
- -- which I think is what you meant by the "bullshit" expletive.
Though preferably quote the sections which are unclear.
Also feel free to voice alternative views.
On 03/15/2016 06:40 PM, Colin Parr wrote:
Ok, joking isn't helping. I'll be serious and try and explain
better. An overlong post, I'm afraid. I don't do 'tl;dr'.
I _really mean_ what I say. I'm not just trying to wind you up
(or others for that matter).
Honestly, it is not my intention to make anyone (you, in this
case) feel sad or to feel they've received hateful comments. I am
not _trying_ to upset anyone in an emotional way for fun or
anything like that. I actually don't get a kick from this sort of
argument itself (a certain amount of pride and pleasure creating
what I flatter myself to be the odd well-turned phrase, or pointed
gag; hence my opening comment; sure). I also naturally tend to be
jokey and feel there's no better way to be serious than "ha ha
only serious". I get that sometime comes across as sarcasm but,
hey, sometimes I intend it to.
Actually, re-reading my posts I think I'm being quite clear: I
don't like wishy-washy 'belief' statements and, you know what?, I
actually do find to be arrogant statements that assert an
understanding of reality on some 'deep' level that has no
objective evidence for it, especially when the stater also insists
that this be taken seriously, not mocked every time it is mentioned
in polite company, and tries to use such statements as components
of otherwise rational arguments.
I've no doubt people who are into Buddhism, say, who mediate a lot
and spend their time contemplating the lack of self and whatever,
actually do come to believe they feel that way and they've
accessed some deep truth. I've done my share of reading about it,
meditating and hanging around at retreats etc and that seems to be
somewhat repeatable and history also says as much. There's
nothing that suggests to me that that this is actually true of
reality, however, and isn't some self-induced state brought about
by the activity itself combined with absorbing dogma in a
supportive (often manipulative, in my experience, nefarious or not)
social group and having a personal desire for it, or more likely
anything 'meaningful', to be true. Often combined with a history
of mental illness or a tragedy in life to be honest. At least,
that seems to be plausible and a simpler explanation.
So, if anything, what I find hateful is this 'random
culturally-accepted belief system' (had to insert the hyphen,
sorry) that says people's beliefs ought to be given respect
automatically, and the whackier the belief the more respect they
should get. Bullshit! You say something whacky and I'll call
"bullshit!". I expect the same in return. If everyone I am with
at a party says "STFU Colin, you're talking nonsense" (no, really,
you'd be surprised - it has happened more than once!) then I tend
to get the message and, sometimes, even go as far as changing my
opinion!
I know! How well adjusted am I?
Whoops, that'll be that 'ego' I suppose.
I do respect an individual's right to hold any opinion they care
to but don't expect me to sit still and quiet while otherwise
intelligent humans let themselves down when they choose to express
these arbitrary, frequently contradictory and sometimes downright
subversive statements that, if left unchallenged, have a nasty
habit of causing actions that impede our otherwise 'God-given'
right to figure out what is happening here and generally improve
ourselves. I mean, it's a clear contradiction, isn't it?! I also
realise I'm moving around a bit in the religious space here, but
only in a desire to be fair!
I'm afraid to say I don't feel responsible for how someone
responds, emotionally or otherwise, if that is the situation. Of
course 'offence' is likely to be had (not 'taken' - it is entirely
a product of the receiver). Most people don't like to be told
they're talking rubbish when they think they aren't. But! This
nonsense of "what you said offended my beliefs" we seem to have
got used to as a societal 'get out of argument free' card needs to
be put down. Not saying that's what you are doing, of course:
you're just not happy with what I say. And yes, that does make me
feel a little bad but, importantly, not as bad as if I said nothing
and then wondered later why people are happily saying we can't
teach evolution or extract stem cells or whatever, as examples.
And yes, I realise that isn't what _you_ are saying but it is just
a spectrum of bullshit as far as I am concerned so I'll start at
the end nearest to me and work my way down.
Now, I honestly hope that makes you feel better in some way.
After really hijacking this thread I'm going to go read Ben's
paper now and next time hope to respond to that. Happy to discuss
this if you feel inclined also but perhaps a separate thread at
least, or private conversation, would suit the list better.
Take care, Colin
Sent from my iPhone
On 15 Mar 2016, at 5:16 pm, justcamel <[email protected]>
wrote:
Next time you craft three hateful postings in a row, try to
sense your own ego ... try to observe how your identification
with form and your illusionary self strengthens every time you
define something as "other" and/or "enemy" and every time you
judge, ridicule and/or attack "other".
"Colin has to do something about a posting Colin did not like.
Colin can make another person feel sad by attacking/ridiculing
him/her. Yes, let's feel alive by defining ourselves against the
duality of 'other'." ...
All the best!
On 15.03.2016 00:07, Colin Parr wrote: Excellent! You seem to
have come on a long way in just a few email exchanges. The
difference is something to take pride in. Well done you!
Sent from my iPhone
On 14 Mar 2016, at 11:11 pm, justcamel <[email protected]>
wrote:
No worries. I don't find arrogant emails nor people who are
satisfied with a random set of culturally accepted belief
systems to be very encouraging. ;-)
On 14.03.2016 22:12, Colin Parr wrote: Well, OK, but
you've still some work to do on that front, I fear. Please
don't take that as encouragement.
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- --
Logan Streondj,
A dream of Gaia's future.
http://joyfullifestyle.ca
You can use encrypted email with me,
how to: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en/
key fingerprint:
BD7E 6E2A E625 6D47 F7ED 30EC 86D8 FC7C FAD7 2729
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