>
> Intuition is not science. Intuition is just hardened opinion.
>
Mark, without intuition the development of science would grind to a halt.
Logic doesn't come from god who made science in your image, those things
come from humans with faulty, sometimes elegant, perceptions.
Ben and Peter. Do you plan to sell your systems to weapons firms if they
show an interest? Will you submit to them because you know someone else will
anyway?
Next, how can OpenCog be expected to remain safe in a society of scarcity?
It's not the technology itself that worries me, it's the interests of the
few that do. That's a big question. What are your thoughts?
Nathan
On Sun, May 25, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Certainly there are plenty of folks with equal software engineering
> experience
> > to you, advocating the Linux/C++ route (taken in the current OpenCog
> version)
> > rather than the .Net/C# route that I believe you advocate...
> Cool. An *argument from authority* without even having an authority. Show
> me those "plenty of folks" and their reasons for advocating Linux/C++.
> Times have changed. Other alternatives have advanced tremendously. You are
> out of date and using and touting obsolete software and development
> methods. I *don't* believe that you can find an expert who has remained
> current on technology who will back your point.
>
> {NOTE: It's also always interesting to see someone say that the argument
> is OS/language vs. framework/language (don't you know enough to compare
> apples to apples?)]
>
> More importantly, I don't believe that I've ever explicitly endorsed C#.
> What I've always pushed is the .NET framework because 1) it's got far more
> already built infrastructure than anything else and 2) you can mix and match
> languages so that you can use the most appropriate language in any given
> place and still use another language where it is more appropriate.
>
> So, I'll take up your challenge . . . .
>
> I've developed in multiple flavors of Basic, Pascal, Assembly Language,
> LISP, Prolog, C, C++, TCl, etc.
> For experimental development, C++ is probably the worst choice. It's the
> old first-attempt camel you use when you're trying to get speed and
> object-oriented programming. The things that you *have* to worry about like
> memory management and the errors that you can *easily* make are only offset
> where speed is truly a concern. Except that development speed and iteration
> is more important to this effort than sheer system speed. Except that the
> maximum speed-up that you can get from C++ isn't that great -- and you only
> get that if you are *really* good. Why aren't you using C++ only in really
> core systems and something more appropriate for development elsewhere? Oh
> yeah, because there is no really good way to easily integrate multiple
> languages like when using .NET.
>
> If you were serious about speed, you'd be using straight C. If you were
> serious about development time and ease of development, you'd be using a
> better object-oriented language -- or better yet, in many places, a
> functional language.
>
> Face it, you're using what you know and what you've *been* developing in --
> and it's obsolete technology . . . . Your systems people are not keeping up
> as is REQUIRED to maintain your edge in the systems field.
>
> The newest version of C# now has virtually all of the functional capacity
> of OCaml -- or, why not just use F# where appropriate? For web stuff,
> there's far more infrastructure available under .NET than is available under
> any *nix or Java and if you like the languages available on *nix, there's
> always IronPython and Iron Ruby.
>
> I claim as FACT that general development under .NET is at least twice as
> fast as in any other environment due to the existing tools and
> infrastructure.
>
> Can you find anyone who is familiar with both .NET 3.5 and Linux/C++ who is
> willing to claim otherwise?
>
> What is your reason for using C++? Other than the fact that porting your
> application is going to be expensive, I'm not sure that you have a valid
> one. And I'm reasonably sure that the advantages of porting will *rapidly*
> provide a return on investment sufficient to offset the porting cost.
>
> So, please, back up your claim. Find some experts who are up-to-date to
> explain why Linux/C++ is better.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Goertzel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2008 4:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [agi] More Info Please
>
> >> One of the things that I've been tempted to argue for a while is an
> entirely
> >> alternate underlying software architecture for OpenCog -- people can
> then
> >> develop in the architecture that is most convenient and then we could
> have
> >> people cross-port between the two. I strongly contend that the current
> >> architecture does not take advantage of a large part of the newest
> advances
> >> and infrastructures of the past half-decade. I think that if people saw
> >> what could be done with far less time and code utilizing already
> existing
> >> functionality and better tools that C++ would be a dead issue.
> >
> > Somehow I doubt that this list will be the place where the endless
> OS/language
> > wars plaguing the IT community are finally solved ;-p
> >
> > Certainly there are plenty of folks with equal software engineering
> experience
> > to you, advocating the Linux/C++ route (taken in the current OpenCog
> version)
> > rather than the .Net/C# route that I believe you advocate...
> >
> > -- Ben G
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------
> > agi
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