I don't think this is reasonable. For the experiment, we would isolate you with various shielding. It is a question of the design of an experiment, like any other physics experiment. At some point, Occam's Razor tells you that the best theory is a non-computational system.
And, I hate to be defending people who make this kind of claim, because their claims are wrong-- since what they are claiming to have observed the mind do could easily be done by a computer. And the kind of stuff I am saying you would use to test it I don't believe people could do. But the point is only that one could perform experiments that would test the hypothesis. The claim that such experiments would have to be infinitely long to be convincing is not valid, I don't believe. Ben> Eric, According to your argument, there are some cases in which Ben> you could demonstrate that I was producing outputs that could not Ben> be generated by the specific computer that is **my brain** Ben> according to our current understanding of my brain. Ben> However, this would not demonstrate that the source is Ben> noncomputational. There are other possible explanations, such as Ben> the explanation that there is some more powerful computer Ben> somewhere generating the outputs, in a way that we don't Ben> currently understand. Ben> So the question then becomes how would you distinguish between Ben> the hypothesis of a hidden noncomputational source, and a hidden Ben> more-powerful-computer source? Again, you need to make this Ben> distinction using a finite set of finite-precision Ben> observations.... And so my argument then applies again to this Ben> additional set of observations.... Ben> So I don't see that you have really provided a counterexample. Ben> However, I can see the value of formalizing my argument Ben> mathematically so as to avoid the appearance of such loopholes... Ben> ben g Ben> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 7:01 PM, Eric Baum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Ben> wrote: >> >> You have not convinced me that you can do anything a computer >> can't do. >> And, using language or math, you never will -- >> because any finite set of symbols >> you can utter, could also be >> uttered by some computational system. >> -- Ben G >> >> I have the sense that this argument is not air tight, because I can >> imagine a zero-knowledge proof that you can do something a computer >> can't do. >> >> Any finite set of symbols you utter *could*, of course, be >> utterable by some computational system, but if they are generated >> in response to queries that are not known in advance, it might be >> arbitrarily unlikely that they *would* be uttered by any particular >> computational system. >> >> For example, to make this concrete and airtight, I can add a time >> element. Say I compute offline the answers to a large number of >> problems that, if one were to solve them with a computation, >> provably could only be solved by extremely long sequential >> computations, each longer than any sequential computation that a >> computer that could possibly be built out of the matter in your >> brain could compute in an hour, and I present you these problems >> and you answer 10000 of them in half an hour. At this point, I am >> going, I think, to be pursuaded that you are doing something that >> can not be captured by a Turing machine. >> >> Not that I believe, of course, that you can do anything a computer >> can't do. I'm just saying, the above argument is not a proof that, >> if you could, it could not be demonstrated. >> >> >> ------------------------------------------- >> agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS >> Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your >> Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; Powered by Listbox: >> http://www.listbox.com >> Ben> -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director Ben> of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ben> "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an Ben> invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a Ben> sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the Ben> dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve Ben> equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a Ben> computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Ben> Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein Ben> ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: Ben> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: Ben> https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Ben> Subscription: Ben> https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; Ben> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com Ben> <br>Eric,<br><br>According to your argument, there are some cases Ben> in which you could demonstrate that I was producing outputs that Ben> could not be generated by the specific computer that is **my Ben> brain** according to our current understanding of my brain.<br> Ben> <br>However, this would not demonstrate that the source is Ben> noncomputational. There are other possible explanations, Ben> such as the explanation that there is some more powerful computer Ben> somewhere generating the outputs, in a way that we don't Ben> currently understand. <br> <br>So the question then becomes Ben> how would you distinguish between the hypothesis of a hidden Ben> noncomputational source, and a hidden more-powerful-computer Ben> source? Again, you need to make this distinction using a Ben> finite set of finite-precision observations.... And so my Ben> argument then applies again to this additional set of Ben> observations....<br> <br>So I don't see that you have really Ben> provided a counterexample. However, I can see the value of Ben> formalizing my argument mathematically so as to avoid the Ben> appearance of such loopholes...<br><br>ben g<br><br><div Ben> class="gmail_quote"> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 7:01 PM, Eric Baum Ben> <span dir="ltr"><<a Ben> href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a>></span> Ben> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px Ben> solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; Ben> padding-left: 1ex;"> <div class="Ih2E3d"><br> >> You have Ben> not convinced me that you can do anything a computer can't Ben> do.<br> >> And, using language or math, you never will -- Ben> because any finite set of symbols<br> >> you can utter, Ben> could also be uttered by some computational system.<br> >> Ben> -- Ben G<br> <br> </div>I have the sense that this argument is Ben> not air tight, because I can<br> imagine a zero-knowledge proof Ben> that you can do something a computer<br> can't do.<br> <br> Ben> Any finite set of symbols you utter *could*, of course, be Ben> utterable by<br> some computational system, but if they are Ben> generated in response to<br> queries that are not known in Ben> advance, it might be arbitrarily unlikely<br> that they *would* Ben> be uttered by any particular computational system.<br> <br> For Ben> example, to make this concrete and airtight, I can add a time Ben> element.<br> Say I compute offline the answers to a large number Ben> of<br> problems that, if one were to solve them with a Ben> computation,<br> provably could only be solved by extremely long Ben> sequential<br> computations, each longer than any sequential Ben> computation<br> that a computer that could<br> possibly be built Ben> out of the matter in your brain could compute in an hour,<br> and Ben> I present you these problems and you answer 10000 of them in Ben> half<br> an hour. At this point, I am going, I think, to be Ben> pursuaded that you<br> are doing something that can not be Ben> captured by a Turing machine.<br> <br> Not that I believe, of Ben> course, that you can do anything a computer<br> can't Ben> do. I'm just saying, the above argument is not a proof Ben> that,<br> if you could, it could not be demonstrated.<br> Ben> <div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br> <br> Ben> -------------------------------------------<br> agi<br> Archives: Ben> <a href="https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now"; Ben> target="_blank">https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now</a><br> Ben> RSS Feed: <a Ben> href="https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/"; Ben> target="_blank">https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/</a><br> Ben> Modify Your Subscription: <a Ben> href="https://www.listbox.com/member/?&"; Ben> target="_blank">https://www.listbox.com/member/?&</a><br> Ben> Powered by Listbox: <a href="http://www.listbox.com"; Ben> target="_blank">http://www.listbox.com</a><br> Ben> </div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Ben Ben> Goertzel, PhD<br>CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC<br>Director Ben> of Research, SIAI<br><a Ben> href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]">[EMAIL PROTECTED]</a><br><br>"A Ben> human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, Ben> butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, Ben> balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, Ben> take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, Ben> analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a Ben> tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is Ben> for insects." -- Robert Heinlein<br> <br><br> <div Ben> style="padding:0 4px 4px 4px;background-color:#fff;clear:both" Ben> bgcolor="#ffffff"> <hr> Ben> <table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%" Ben> style="background-color:#fff" bgcolor="#ffffff"> <tr> <td Ben> padding="4px"> <font color="black" size="1" face="helvetica, Ben> sans-serif;"> <strong>agi</strong> | <a Ben> style="text-decoration:none;color:#669933;border-bottom: 1px Ben> solid #444444" Ben> href="https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now"; title="Go Ben> to archives for agi">Archives</a> <a border="0" Ben> style="text-decoration:none;color:#669933" Ben> href="https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/"; title="RSS Ben> feed for agi"><img border=0 Ben> src="https://www.listbox.com/images/feed-icon-10x10.jpg";></a> | Ben> <a style="text-decoration:none;color:#669933;border-bottom: 1px Ben> solid #444444" Ben> href="https://www.listbox.com/member/?&"; Ben> title="">Modify</a> Your Subscription<td valign="top" Ben> align="right"><a style="border-bottom:none;" Ben> href="http://www.listbox.com";> <img Ben> src="https://www.listbox.com/images/listbox-logo-small.jpg"; Ben> title="Powered by Listbox" border="0" /></a></td> Ben> </font> </td> </tr> </table> </div> ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=117534816-b15a34 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
![https://www.listbox.com/images/feed-icon-10x10.jpg"](https://www.listbox.com/images/feed-icon-10x10.jpg"){kind=link}
![https://www.listbox.com/images/listbox-logo-small.jpg"](https://www.listbox.com/images/listbox-logo-small.jpg"){kind=link}