>> You've now changed your statement to "science = optimal formalized group >> learning" ... I'm not sure if this is intended as descriptive or prescriptive
Our previous e-mails about the sociology of science should have made it quite clear that its not descriptive ;-) Of course it was intended to be prescriptive. (Though, on second thought, if you removed the "optimal", maybe it could be descriptive -- what do you think?) And yes, I'm constantly changing the phrasing of my statement in an attempt to get my intended meaning across. This is <eventually> going to loop back to my belief that the degree to which you are a general intelligence is the degree to which you're a(n optimal) scientist. So I haven't really changed my basic point at all (although admittedly, I've certainly refined it some -- which is my whole purpose in having this discussion :-) >> Also, learning could be learning about mathematics, which we don't normally >> think of as being science ... True. But I would argue that that is a shortcoming of our thinking. This is similar to your previous cosmology example. I'm including both under the umbrella of what you'd clearly be happier phrasing as "a system of thought intended to guide a group in learning about . . . ." What would you say if I defined science as "a system of thought intended to guide a group in learning about the empirical world" and a scientist simply as someone who employs science (i.e. that system of thought). I would also tend to think of "system of thought" as being interchangeable with "process" and/or "method". >> If you said "A scientific research programme is a system of thought intended >> to guide a group in learning about some aspect of the empirical world (as >> understood by this group) and formalizing their conclusions and methods" I >> wouldn't complain as much... So you like SCIENCE PROGRAM = SYSTEM FOR GROUP LEARNING + FORMALIZATION OF RESULTS but you don't like SCIENCE = LEARNING + TRANSMISSION (which is the individual case) OR SCIENCE = GROUP LEARNING (which probably should have + CODIFICATION added to assist the learning of future group members). ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Goertzel To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 10:55 AM Subject: **SPAM** Re: [agi] If your AGI can't learn to play chess it is no AGI No, it's really just that I've been spending too much time on this mailing list. I've got an AGI to build, as well as too many other responsibilities ;-p You've now changed your statement to "science = optimal formalized group learning" ... I'm not sure if this is intended as descriptive or prescriptive Obviously, science as practiced is not optimal and has many cultural properties besides those implied by being "group learning" Also, learning could be learning about mathematics, which we don't normally think of as being science ... If you said "A scientific research programme is a system of thought intended to guide a group in learning about some aspect of the empirical world (as understood by this group) and formalizing their conclusions and methods" I wouldn't complain as much... ben On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:13 AM, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Or, in other words, you can't even start to draw a clear distinction in a small number of words. That would argue that maybe those equalities aren't so silly after all. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Goertzel To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 7:38 PM Subject: **SPAM** Re: [agi] If your AGI can't learn to play chess it is no AGI Sorry, I'm just going to have to choose to be ignored on this topic ;-) ... I have too much AGI stuff to do to be spending so much time chatting on mailing lists ... and I've already published my thoughts on philosophy of science in The Hidden Pattern and online... ben g On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> These equations seem silly to me ... obviously science is much more than that, as Mark should know as he has studied philosophy of science extensively Mark is looking for well-defined distinctions. Claiming that science is "obviously" much more than <learning> is a non-sequitor. What does science include that learning does not? Please be specific or you *should* be ignored. The transmission or communication of results (or, as Matt puts it, language) is one necessary addition. Do you wish to provide another or do you just want to say that there must be one without being able to come up with one? Mark can still think of at least one other thing (which may be multiples depending upon how you look at it) but isn't comfortable that he has an optimal view of it so he's looking for other viewpoints/phrasings. >> Cognitively, the precursor for science seems to be Piaget's formal stage of cognitive development. If you have a community of minds that have reached the formal stage, then potentially they can develop the mental and social patterns corresponding to the practice of science. So how is science different from optimal formalized group learning? What's the distinction? ----- Original Message ----- From: Ben Goertzel To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2008 11:14 AM Subject: **SPAM** Re: [agi] If your AGI can't learn to play chess it is no AGI These equations seem silly to me ... obviously science is much more than that, as Mark should know as he has studied philosophy of science extensively Cognitively, the precursor for science seems to be Piaget's formal stage of cognitive development. If you have a community of minds that have reached the formal stage, then potentially they can develop the mental and social patterns corresponding to the practice of science. -- Ben On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Matt Mahoney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: --- On Sat, 10/25/08, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Would it then be accurate to say SCIENCE = LEARNING + > TRANSMISSION ? > > Or, how about, SCIENCE = GROUP LEARNING ? Science = learning + language. -- Matt Mahoney, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein ---------------------------------------------------------------------- agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription ------------------------------------------------------------------------ agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein -------------------------------------------------------------------------- agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ agi | Archives | Modify Your Subscription ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=117534816-b15a34 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
