One can certainly claim that science is about making predictions regarding empirical observations ... this is different from science or math
Then science is something like "formalized group learning aimed at making increasingly accurate predictions about empirical observations" But then to deal with sciences like cosmology and evolution you have to wave your hands around a little ... An alternative might be "formalized group learning aimed at creating compact programs capable of approximatively generating sets of empirical observations" By Occam's Razor the creation of compact explanatory programs leads to the making of accurate predictions.... ben g On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Cool. Thank you for the assist. > > I think that math has the distinction that it is a closed formal system and > that therefore people segregate it from the open mess that science has to > deal with (though arguably the scientific method applies). > > Art seems to be that which deals with an even bigger open mess (since it > always includes humans in the system ;-) and which is even less codified > though it seems to frequently want to migrate to be science. > > = = = = = = > > Actually, in a way, it almost seems as if you want a spectrum running from > MATH through SCIENCE continuing through ART to ??DISORDER?? > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > *To:* [email protected] > *Sent:* Monday, October 27, 2008 12:07 PM > *Subject:* **SPAM** Re: [agi] If your AGI can't learn to play chess it is > no AGI > > > I think you're converging on better and better wording ... however, I think > somehow you do need to account for the differences between > > -- science > > on the one hand and > > -- math > -- art > > etc. on the other hand, which also involve group learning and codification > and communication of results, etc. ... but are different from science. I'm > not sure the best way to formalize the difference in general, in a way that > encompasses all the cases of science and is descriptive rather than > normative ... but I haven't thought about it much and have other stuff to > do... > > ben > > On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 8:40 AM, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> >> You've now changed your statement to "science = optimal formalized >> group learning" ... I'm not sure if this is intended as descriptive or >> prescriptive >> Our previous e-mails about the sociology of science should have made it >> quite clear that its not descriptive ;-) Of course it was intended to >> be prescriptive. (Though, on second thought, if you removed the "optimal", >> maybe it could be descriptive -- what do you think?) >> >> And yes, I'm constantly changing the phrasing of my statement in an >> attempt to get my intended meaning across. This is <eventually> going to >> loop back to my belief that the degree to which you are a general >> intelligence is the degree to which you're a(n optimal) scientist. So I >> haven't really changed my basic point at all (although admittedly, I've >> certainly refined it some -- which is my whole purpose in having this >> discussion :-) >> >> >> Also, learning could be learning about mathematics, which we don't >> normally think of as being science ... >> True. But I would argue that that is a shortcoming of our thinking. This >> is similar to your previous cosmology example. I'm including both under the >> umbrella of what you'd clearly be happier phrasing as "a system of >> thought intended to guide a group in learning about . . . ." >> >> What would you say if I defined science as "a system of thought intended >> to guide a group in learning about the empirical world" and a scientist >> simply as someone who employs science (i.e. that system of thought). >> >> I would also tend to think of "system of thought" as being interchangeable >> with "process" and/or "method". >> >> >> If you said "A scientific research programme is a system of thought >> intended to guide a group in learning about some aspect of the empirical >> world (as understood by this group) and formalizing their conclusions and >> methods" I wouldn't complain as much... >> So you like SCIENCE PROGRAM = SYSTEM FOR GROUP LEARNING + FORMALIZATION OF >> RESULTS but you don't like SCIENCE = LEARNING + TRANSMISSION (which is the >> individual case) OR SCIENCE = GROUP LEARNING (which probably should have + >> CODIFICATION added to assist the learning of future group members). >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> *To:* [email protected] >> *Sent:* Monday, October 27, 2008 10:55 AM >> *Subject:* **SPAM** Re: [agi] If your AGI can't learn to play chess it is >> no AGI >> >> >> No, it's really just that I've been spending too much time on this mailing >> list. I've got an AGI to build, as well as too many other responsibilities >> ;-p >> >> You've now changed your statement to "science = optimal formalized group >> learning" ... I'm not sure if this is intended as descriptive or >> prescriptive >> >> Obviously, science as practiced is not optimal and has many cultural >> properties besides those implied by being "group learning" >> >> Also, learning could be learning about mathematics, which we don't >> normally think of as being science ... >> >> If you said "A scientific research programme is a system of thought >> intended to guide a group in learning about some aspect of the empirical >> world (as understood by this group) and formalizing their conclusions and >> methods" I wouldn't complain as much... >> >> ben >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:13 AM, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> Or, in other words, you can't even start to draw a clear distinction in >>> a small number of words. That would argue that maybe those equalities >>> aren't so silly after all. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> >>> *From:* Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> *To:* [email protected] >>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 26, 2008 7:38 PM >>> *Subject:* **SPAM** Re: [agi] If your AGI can't learn to play chess it >>> is no AGI >>> >>> >>> Sorry, I'm just going to have to choose to be ignored on this topic ;-) >>> ... I have too much AGI stuff to do to be spending so much time chatting on >>> mailing lists ... and I've already published my thoughts on philosophy of >>> science in The Hidden Pattern and online... >>> >>> ben g >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 9:51 AM, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: >>> >>>> >> These equations seem silly to me ... obviously science is much more >>>> than that, as Mark should know as he has studied philosophy of science >>>> extensively >>>> Mark is looking for well-defined distinctions. Claiming that science is >>>> "obviously" much more than <learning> is a non-sequitor. What does science >>>> include that learning does not? Please be specific or you *should* be >>>> ignored. >>>> >>>> The transmission or communication of results (or, as Matt puts it, >>>> language) is one necessary addition. Do you wish to provide another or do >>>> you just want to say that there must be one without being able to come up >>>> with one? >>>> >>>> Mark can still think of at least one other thing (which may be multiples >>>> depending upon how you look at it) but isn't comfortable that he has an >>>> optimal view of it so he's looking for other viewpoints/phrasings. >>>> >>>> >> Cognitively, the precursor for science seems to be Piaget's formal >>>> stage of cognitive development. If you have a community of minds that have >>>> reached the formal stage, then potentially they can develop the mental and >>>> social patterns corresponding to the practice of science. >>>> >>>> So how is science different from optimal formalized group learning? >>>> What's the distinction? >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> *From:* Ben Goertzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> *To:* [email protected] >>>> *Sent:* Sunday, October 26, 2008 11:14 AM >>>> *Subject:* **SPAM** Re: [agi] If your AGI can't learn to play chess it >>>> is no AGI >>>> >>>> >>>> These equations seem silly to me ... obviously science is much more than >>>> that, as Mark should know as he has studied philosophy of science >>>> extensively >>>> >>>> Cognitively, the precursor for science seems to be Piaget's formal stage >>>> of cognitive development. If you have a community of minds that have >>>> reached the formal stage, then potentially they can develop the mental and >>>> social patterns corresponding to the practice of science. >>>> >>>> -- Ben >>>> >>>> On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Matt Mahoney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: >>>> >>>>> --- On Sat, 10/25/08, Mark Waser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > Would it then be accurate to say SCIENCE = LEARNING + >>>>> > TRANSMISSION ? >>>>> > >>>>> > Or, how about, SCIENCE = GROUP LEARNING ? >>>>> >>>>> Science = learning + language. >>>>> >>>>> -- Matt Mahoney, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------- >>>>> agi >>>>> Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now >>>>> RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ >>>>> Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?&; >>>>> Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Ben Goertzel, PhD >>>> CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC >>>> Director of Research, SIAI >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> >>>> "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, >>>> butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance >>>> accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give >>>> orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch >>>> manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die >>>> gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >>>> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >>>> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >>>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ben Goertzel, PhD >>> CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC >>> Director of Research, SIAI >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >>> "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, >>> butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance >>> accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give >>> orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch >>> manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die >>> gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >>> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >>> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >>> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >>> <http://www.listbox.com> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Ben Goertzel, PhD >> CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC >> Director of Research, SIAI >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, >> butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance >> accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give >> orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch >> manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die >> gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> >> <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | >> Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription >> <http://www.listbox.com> >> > > > > -- > Ben Goertzel, PhD > CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC > Director of Research, SIAI > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher > a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, > build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, > cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, > program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. > Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein > > > ------------------------------ > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > > ------------------------------ > *agi* | Archives <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now> > <https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/> | > Modify<https://www.listbox.com/member/?&;>Your Subscription > <http://www.listbox.com> > -- Ben Goertzel, PhD CEO, Novamente LLC and Biomind LLC Director of Research, SIAI [EMAIL PROTECTED] "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein ------------------------------------------- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244&id_secret=117534816-b15a34 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
