On Sat, Jul 18, 2026 at 09:13:20AM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 17-Jul-26 21:20, Toerless Eckert wrote:
> > Thanks, Brian
> >
> > Maybe i misunderstand something, but the goal of
> > draft-he-dawn-ipv6-agent-aware-framework seems
> > to be to ask for communication mechanisms that enable better agent-2-agent
> > communication. Which
> > is something totally different than what our ai2an draft targets, which is
> > an infrastructure
> > that allows one or more AI agents to best manage the network autonomically.
>
> That's true, but DAWN as a whole seems quite confused about its goals.
Sure. But on the other hand, if you're not confused about goals, it doesn't
make the journey simpler.
> > Aka: Dawn draft is network infrastructure for agent-2-agent communication
> > ai4an draft is network infrastructure for agent network management
> >
> > The draft you list seems to be borderline for DAWN as i think it says
> > itself. It's more like a layer
> > of dynamic load balacing for request packets sent toward a cluster address
> > if i am not mistaken.
>
> It's also borderline for IPv6; at first sight I couldn't see any reason why
> it cares about the IP version number.
Given how IP multicast has already embedded additional semantic
meaning into IPv6 addresses very successfully not only with IPv6 multicast
itself but specifically also with RFC3956, there is a good argument to be
made that additional forwarding semantic doesn't always need new packet
headers if you can come up with useful creative ways to abuse existing packet
formats (and specifically otherwise unused address space).
Yes, we've been around that block in unicast very fruitlessly several times.
I still don't understand which part of "IPv7 would require forklifting billions
of lines of code that are better left unchanged" is so hard to understand.
And let's remember that existing network designs are already using additional
policy based on unused IPv6 address bits quite nicely purely through
configuration
(of eg: policy routing access lists). As long as that's effectively what new
mechanisms would do too i see no reason to not leverage that option instead of
unnecessarily re-inventing network packet headers.
> > I gave up proposing things to DAWN after my first inputs wheree ignored on
> > the list.
> > I think i have to stand up and raise concerns about the most basic issues.
> > For example,
> > i can not see how DAWN wants to solve the most basic discovery challenges
> > over the Internet,
> > namely trusting service announcements. I mean the Internet exists for
> > decades, and there is
> > no such thing as a generic trusted mechanism for service discovery. Instead
> > we have word of
> > mouth ("you ewant a search service ? Try google.com or baidu.com -
> > depending on which side of
> > the GWC you are").
> >
> > Meaning: All this dawn stuff can only work well (like ANIMA) in well enough
> > managed networks
> > with some magical third-party entity that only admits trusted entities for
> > each service of interest.
>
> Either that, or a very clever auth/authz process after discovery. That would
> also very likely need a trusted third party too.
I am still trying to figure out how DAWN would provide a protocol to replace
yelp.com
to route my packets to the best restaurant. And avoid all the problems yelp has.
Or hotels.com. Or any of the hundreds other "platforms" monetizing clueless
customers
service discovery problems.
How many AI agents do i need to feed fake service information into DAWN to
direct
all service traffic to my AI servers ?
Cheers
Toerless
> Brian
>
> >
> > But that's just my biggest DAWN issue...
> >
> > Cheers
> > Toerless
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 06, 2026 at 01:50:24PM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I'm all for what you are saying in this draft, but I think you also have
> > > to address it to the DAWN people and everybody working on agentic
> > > communications. Look at draft-he-dawn-ipv6-agent-aware-framework, for
> > > example; it has very little to do with IPv6. Maybe you should ask for a
> > > slot at the DAWN BOF? (DAWN = Discovery of Agents, Workloads, and Named
> > > Entities.) At least point out that ANIMA/GRASP has been working on
> > > discovery of agents since the dawn of time (pun intended).
> > >
> > > Also, the trust boundary issue we just discussed re
> > > draft-soulard-anima-grasp-router-problem-statement is going to be
> > > relevant. I see a clear clash between the type of trust boundary that
> > > BRSKI provides and how the agentic community is looking at trust.
> > >
> > > Nit: s/autonomous/autonomic/ globally
> > >
> > > (We chose "autonomic" at the beginning of ANIMA, by analogy with the
> > > autonomic nervous system, so I think we need to be consistent.)
> > >
> > > Regards/Ngā mihi
> > > Brian
> > >
> > > On 06-Jul-26 11:28, [email protected] wrote:
> > > > Internet-Draft draft-eckert-anima-ai4an-00.txt is now available.
> > > >
> > > > Title: AI for Autonomous Networking
> > > > Authors: Toerless Eckert
> > > > Alexander Clemm
> > > > Name: draft-eckert-anima-ai4an-00.txt
> > > > Pages: 17
> > > > Dates: 2026-07-05
> > > >
> > > > Abstract:
> > > >
> > > > This document builds on the architectural foundation of the IETF
> > > > ANIMA "Autonomous Network Infrastructure" to propose an
> > > > architecture
> > > > for in-network intelligence in support of network automation.
> > > >
> > > > The key aspect of this architecture is the use of AI programmed and
> > > > validated software running decentralized on the network.
> > > >
> > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this Internet-Draft is:
> > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eckert-anima-ai4an/
> > > >
> > > > There is also an HTMLized version available at:
> > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-eckert-anima-ai4an-00
> > > >
> > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by rsync at:
> > > > rsync.ietf.org::internet-drafts
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > I-D-Announce mailing list -- [email protected]
> > > > To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected]
> >
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