What can you tell us about the experience with bicarbonate?  I think I 
heard at the Hudson Valley RIMpro meeting last
month that bicarbonate is used in Europe during rainfall to kill what has 
impinged on foliage, but not entered the leaf interior yet.
That would seem to necessitate repeated applications during an infections 
period. Does it have no after-infection value?

David Kollas

On Apr 7, 2016, at 4:41 PM, Vincent Philion <> wrote:

> Hi!
> Normal only in the context of Organic Production only! Part of the 
> phytotoxicity is avoided by using a much reduced rate in summer.
> I meant to say it’s not a rescue treatment for anyone.
> it’s either ’normal’ (organic) or completely forgotten (IPM).
> I would also say that LLS is quickly being replaced by bicarbonate. And IPM 
> growers are looking into it as well.
> Vincent
>> Le 7 avr. 2016 à 15:56, David Kollas <> a écrit :
>> I was surprised by Vincent’s comment that liquid lime sulfur is a “normal” 
>> choice for post-infection in his area. My recollection
>> is that its use quickly went out of favor when ferbam and captan became 
>> available, mostly because of reduced photosynthetic
>> ability of LLS-damaged leaves.  Maybe the poor fruit set and lower-sugar 
>> apples are less apparent if those sprays are not repeated, compounding the 
>> damage.  How are the Quebec growers avoiding LLS injury, Vincent?
>> Concerning Dave Rosenbergers suggestion that burning the leaves sufficiently 
>> to stop growth of the fungus might be beneficial,
>> I have wondered whether captan and oil could be used for that purpose, but I 
>> have never tried it.  If no one knows of any such
>> trial, I may give it a try this year. I would expect to loose the crop, but 
>> hopefully sufficient new foliage would develop to make flower buds for next 
>> year.
>> David Kollas
>> Kollas Orchard; CT
>> On Apr 7, 2016, at 2:17 PM, David Doud <> wrote:
>>> LLS was out of favor here before I started spraying, but I do have some 
>>> references and dad used to talk about it - 
>>> from 1944 ‘Spray Chemicals’ - “The disadvantages are that liquid 
>>> lime-sulfur is very disagreeable to use owing to its causticity. Also this 
>>> causticity is blamed for subsequent foliage dwarfing, injury, loss of 
>>> foliage, reduction in rate of photosynthesis, and fruit russeting of 
>>> apples…Young tender tissue contains abundant oxygen, and these polysulfides 
>>> immediately satisfy themselves by taking the oxygen supply from the leaf 
>>> tissue.  As a result, normal leaf functions are temporarily disrupted and 
>>> desiccation of marginal cells, or "burning” takes place.  The leaves take 
>>> on a “crinkled” appearance and rarely develop normally.  This reaction also 
>>> offers an explanation for sulfur russeting during the pre-pink, pink, and 
>>> petal fall stage of fruit formation…”
>>> there is varietal variation in regard to susceptibility to LLS injury - 
>>> In your situation, I would be very conservative using LLS until the foliage 
>>> has a chance to dry and harden - at least one good sunny day of well above 
>>> freezing temps and no more freezing temperatures forecast  - but whadda I 
>>> know?
>>> I’m in about the same situation as you - sitting here at 1/2” green, a 
>>> couple of long wetting periods and 3”+ of rain at mostly cold temps but 
>>> enough 50*+ hours to cause concern - two nights, one 24*, one 23* earlier 
>>> this week and two more forecast for saturday morning and sunday morning - 
>>> the orchard is soaked and soggy and there is still pruning brush in the way 
>>> some places - not to mention high winds for the last 4 days - and 30mph 
>>> gusts today - 
>>> I’m not going to worry too much - after we get out of this weather pattern 
>>> and I can get thru the plantings I’ll get a protectant on and scout 
>>> carefully after symptoms have time to develop - I’ve conserved chemicals 
>>> like Syllit, Topsin-M, Rally, and the like and feel like if I need to I can 
>>> knock out an infection if one develops - 
>>> Dad used to talk about the year they got scab started at green tip and the 
>>> frustrating season long fight afterwards - it was before I was born and I 
>>> don’t recall specifically which year he mentioned, but it was a big deal - 
>>> I think we have some better options today to deal with that situation - at 
>>> least I hope so - 
>>> Good luck - 
>>> David 
>>>> On Apr 7, 2016, at 12:56 PM, David Kollas <> wrote:
>>>>    Does anyone have enough experience with liquid lime sulfur to comment 
>>>> on it as an emergency
>>>> choice for application before rains have stopped during the current long 
>>>> infection period?  It is listed as 
>>>> having 72-96 hours back-action in the New England Tree Fruits Management 
>>>> Guide.
>>>>    In my particular situation, Half-Inch Green stage tissues were exposed 
>>>> many hours during two of
>>>> the previous three nights to 18-20 degrees F, and are probably extra 
>>>> sensitive to captan penetration
>>>> and phytotoxicity.
>>>> David Kollas
>>>> Kollas Orchard
>>>> Connecticut 
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