Hi Richard!
On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:23:50 +0100 (CET), [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Richard Menedetter) wrote:
> Hi Samuel!
> 09 Mar 2001, "Samuel W. Heywood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Why the **** are you using Internet Exploder ???????
> SH> I use Internet Explorer only when it is very important for me to
> SH> find some information on a web page that is JavaScript-infested and
> SH> when the information isn't readily available anywhere else except on
> SH> the badly designed web page.
> I thought that this is what Netscape is for ...
> SH> I'm using Internet Explorer because that is what came with my
> SH> computer when I bought it new ca. 1996.
> So you are exactly doing what M$ wants you to do, and for what it has been
> sued.
I am not doing what M$ wants me to do. I am doing what M$ *requires* me to
do if I want to buy a new computer from a legally licensed business.
> You know that there are alternatives ?
> SH> At that time Bill Gates had total control over all of the computer
> SH> manufacturers were licensed to provide systems with Windows.
> You are
> 1) free to let a small company build you a customized computer from the
> parts you tell them to use.
> 2) even if you buy from a big company you can format c:
All of these small companies that I knew of at the time were licensed to
sell Windows. If you didn't want to buy Windows from them, then they
would not be allowed to build a computer for you without violating their
license terms. Many such small companies did violate their license terms
in this way, but of course the customer had to promise not to report such
things to the authorities. In case the customer wanted to complain about
a company not honoring the terms of a guarantee, he would have to inform
the authorities of all aspects of the deal. It would be a case of my word
against theirs, and both of us would be liars. If I promise not to tell on
someone, but I go ahead and snitch on him anyway, then I am not a man of my
word. At the time I was not acquainted with any trustworthy lawbreakers.
For that reason my best option was to engage only in perfectly legal deals.
> PS: In germany a user sued a computer company, because they didn't want to
> give him the money for windows back, which he didn't need, and so returned
> the CD to the seller ...
> guess what ... he won !
Similar cases have been tried in the United States. And guess what?
They lost! Maybe Bill Gates doesn't have enough money to buy a German judge.
We have recently found that there is at least one American judge that he
can't buy either.
> SH> He didn't allow any of them to provide any non-Micro$oft browsers in
> SH> the computers they were marketing.
> Why not buy from another company ??
Of course I could have bought NetScape, but at the time that would have
cost me an extra 45 to 50 dollars. If I wanted to buy a new machine I
had to buy Internet Explorer, whether I wanted it or not.
> And furthermore you are free to do what you want with YOUR computer after
> you have bought it. (this includes using a little program called ieremove,
> which completely removes internet explorer from your computer [a thing
> which M$ until now states that is impossible], and you are also free to
> install custom programs like Netscape or Opera)
Where can I get IEREMOVE?
> SH> Furthermore, the customers were not even permitted the option of
> SH> buying a computer without an operating system installed if the
> SH> computer manufacturer and the retail dealer were licensed to provide
> SH> Windows.
> You sure use the wrong company ...
> I have bought many computers ... none had windows preinstalled.
Of course you can do that in other countries. In Germany nobody has
to obey any U.S. laws. While in Germany you have to obey only German laws.
> SH> You were not allowed to buy a new PC without Windows from
> SH> anyone except the black-market dealers.
> This DEFINITLY can't be true.
I am told that this definitely was true in the case of all computer
manufacturers and retail merchants who were licensed to sell Windows.
> go to a small computer company, buy a mainboard, a HDD, ....
> and let them make a computer out of them. (or do it yourself)
Currently it is legal for any company to do this, but AFAIK it wasn't legal
in 1996. (There may have been exceptions if used or old system components
were to be installed.) I used to scavenge the flea markets for computer
components to build some DOS PC's and sell them for a small profit. I sold
them with DOS 3.3 installed and some nice freeware and shareware programs.
Also I provided the DOS 3.3 in the original unopened factory shrink-wrap for
no extra charge with each computer. I could buy the DOS cheap from a flea
market dealer who acquired it from undisclosed sources. I had fun doing it
and I made a little money at it. Technically this endeavor might have been
somewhat illegal, but they weren't making any efforts to prosecute the real
small time dealers like myself. They had bigger fish to fry.
> Nevertheless, it is YOUR Computer after you bought it, so you can make
> format c: after you bought it.
> SH> BTW, I personally feel that when licensing laws result in such an
> SH> oppressive situation, then the the people should be encouraged to
> SH> violate such laws.
> I know that America is VERY strange (at least to us europeans).
> But I can't imagine that such a law could be passed.
> What exactly is this law all about ?
This type of situation developed as a result of some very erroneous and
far-reaching interpretations that were being applied to licensing contract
and copyright laws. The fallacies of such interpretations are that they
tend to inhibit free enterprise and they help to build the gates around a
the palace of monopolistic feudalism, which is also against the law.
Currently the legal system is trying to take some positive steps to try to
clear up these apparently contradictory issues in the law. It is my opinion,
though I am no lawyer, that the licensing and contracting provisions were
illegal in the fist place because they violate the anti-monopoly laws.
Therefore, the licensees and contractors to such agreements have no moral or
legal obligation to abide by the illegal provisions which they had
wrongfully agreed to.
>>> SH> and that the only program out there that can deal with it is
>>> SH> Internet Explorer 5.5.
>>> Netscape and propably Opera should work.
>>> The only situation where they will fail is if the site uses (radio)
>>> active X.
> SH> The situation failed because Internet Explorer would not allow me to
> SH> view the logon page because the list of security certificate
> SH> validation authorities is out of date.
> Can't you manually override this ??
I found where I could overide this in the case of security validation
certificates for printers and publishers, but not for banks.
> Netscape can do that. (and I have used it often with Netscape 3 at my
> university)
>>> (PS: You should be able to use even the outdated version ...
>>> if you explicitly tell IE that you trust the key that the server
>>> sends.)
> SH> What do I need to do to tell IE that I trust the key that the server
> SH> sends, and what do you suppose the chances are that my account
> SH> information and my password might be disclosed to an evil snoop or a
> SH> criminal?
> I don't know ...
> I'm refusing to use internet exploder !!!
> Netscape pops up a windows telling you that the cert has expired, and
> there you can simply go on ...
> The risk of exposing your details is VERY low.
> SH> I have SSL with Lynx386. With Lynx386 I got to the https logon
> SH> page. When I submitted my logon Lynx386 returned an error message
> SH> saying "Unsupported URL scheme -- JavaScript!"
> So you can't blame it ALL on Billyboy.
Doesn't Billyboy encourage the use of JavaScript? Isn't Micro$oft in
the business of marketing some software to be used for the purpose of
auto-generating web pages that are full of JavaCrap?
> You simply need a program which supports SSL and JavaScript.
> Both of which are free. And there are free GPL implementations of both.
Yes, I also realize that that is all I really need, but I don't know
what programs might be the best for me to try.
> And you know that Bill G. called the GPL an evil thing from hell.
> SH> I have deactivated Active X on my browser. Therefore Active X has
> SH> nothing to do with my problem.
> Than you can use any SSL and JavaScript capable browser ...
> why not simply install Netscape and delete IE ???
Wouldn't it be better to first delete IE and then install NetScape?
Please tell me where I can get IEREMOVE.
>>> How to access the site ??
> SH> Yes, of course that was the question.
> use a ssl and JS capable browser.
>>> Install netscape 3, and ignore the message that the certs are
>>> outdated and need a roll-over.
> SH> Are you fairly sure that will work? If I do install NetScape 3 and
> SH> fail to get the results I am hoping for, will it be easy to
> SH> uninstall?
> yes and yes
> SH> One thing I really hate about Windows programs is that they are
> SH> often so difficult to uninstall unless you know about such things as
> SH> editing the System Registry and the INI files and such. I haven't
> SH> got the time or the patience to learn all of that because I rarely
> SH> use Windows anyway.
> under all later windows versions (everything newer than win 3.11)
> you have a software uninstall application.
> It's not perfect, but it is not bad.
I think it is very bad. Nearly every time I uninstall some programs in
my WIN95 machine I will still often come across lots of remnants and
leftovers of what I had uninstalled.
>>> The problem is not the 128 bit encryption.
> SH> Yes, I know that is not the problem, but that is what the techies
> SH> told me was the problem. Even DOS Lynx386 can do 128 bit
> SH> encryption. If it were not for all the JavaScript I could get in
> SH> with Lynx386.
> So you answered your own question ... see subject
Yes, I know I have answered my own question, but there is no point in
trying to argue with the techies. They think they know it all and they
absolutely refuse to look at any proof that they are wrong, no matter how
irrefutable the truth might be.
Regards,
Sam Heywood
-- This mail was written by user of The Arachne Browser - http://arachne.cz/
