I think you are still thinking like a typical Java developer who is happy to write web.xml and other XML files. We are not going to change that experience. The Java developers will continue to work with those configurations. However, the YAML experience is for people who run the systems in production. They are not developers. They typically hate XML config because it is too verbose and makes life difficult when they are working with editors such as vi. They are very happy with simple text based configurations. Also there scripting languages that rely on indentation. So we need to start thinking beyond a typical Java development experience.
On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 11:00 AM, Ramith Jayasinghe <[email protected]> wrote: > My point is that, wouldn't that mess up the user-experience to a new > level!. Do we have an idea on how comfortable the average user is with YAML > ( - when they are suppose to configure fairly complicated configurations). > Yes we can validate (- in fact we need to when we can regardless weather > its xml or yaml being used) then the user experience would be 'server > didn't start up because I couldn't indent a space correctly - to me that's > bad user experience). > > > On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Srinath Perera <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I also think that if we use YAML, we should do some work to validate the >> configurations and complain. That will fix the case of single space mess up >> everything. >> >> Thanks >> Srinath >> >> On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Harsha Thirimanna <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Azeez, >>> Since we are normally writing XSD for each xml config files and then we >>> could validate it against when the relevant bundle getting activated. As in >>> my understand, this is valid case for each product. >>> Are there any way to do this with YAML, JSON or do we have any other >>> aspect like doing well document about the config files and its values ? >>> >>> >>> *Harsha Thirimanna* >>> Senior Software Engineer; WSO2, Inc.; http://wso2.com >>> * <http://www.apache.org/>* >>> *email: **[email protected]* <[email protected]>* cell: +94 71 5186770 * >>> *twitter: **http://twitter.com/ <http://twitter.com/afkham_azeez>* >>> *harshathirimannlinked-in: **http: >>> <http://lk.linkedin.com/in/afkhamazeez>**//www.linkedin.com/pub/harsha-thirimanna/10/ab8/122 >>> <http://www.linkedin.com/pub/harsha-thirimanna/10/ab8/122>* >>> >>> *Lean . Enterprise . Middleware* >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Maninda Edirisooriya <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> From this major release we can think about managing configurations from >>>> a single component. At the moment when someone wants to add a config file >>>> it is just added and reading these configs are done with a boilerplate >>>> code. Some issues we get are due to unavailability of config files and >>>> config contents in them. If we can add a component that reads >>>> configurations in the conf directory and validate at the server startup >>>> most of these issues will not be coming. I think it is okay to keed >>>> different formats like YAML, XML, and JSON as configs but we should >>>> validate them in a dedicated component at server startup. Each component >>>> that adds config fies should implement the validation interface exposed by >>>> that component and that componet can provide utility classes to support >>>> parsing each format easily from the implented classes. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 10:45 AM, Afkham Azeez <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The product/component configs have to be rethought as part of >>>>> rewriting them or improving them. The target audience of product config >>>>> files as devops or admin folks. That community prefers simple text >>>>> formats, >>>>> and given an alternative to XML, they will take it. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 9:02 PM, Ramith Jayasinghe <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'm not against Yaml or jason. >>>>>> >>>>>> @Sagara, >>>>>> your point also holds for XML ( we don't need to educate people on >>>>>> how to use XML). In my view it boils down to number of configs we would >>>>>> have in a file + how many level of configs there are. therefore, >>>>>> @Azeez, >>>>>> Point I'm making is there needs to be an effort to >>>>>> try-out/model configurations we have in products (- realistically, most >>>>>> of >>>>>> the functionality of products likely to remain same, configurations >>>>>> required also like to remain same, or am I wrong here? e.g. there will be >>>>>> an API Manager product and that needs certain configurations based on its >>>>>> functionality) in Yaml and figure out if the adoption leads to better >>>>>> user >>>>>> experience ( specially with nested configurations we have). if we agree >>>>>> that it indeed leads to better configuration management then its cool >>>>>> isn't >>>>>> it? thoughts? >>>>>> >>>>>> regards >>>>>> Ramith >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Sagara Gunathunga <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Afkham Azeez <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes, we have just been to KubeCon. Everybody is using YAML. Also, >>>>>>>> while looking at new libraries during research on MSS related stuff, >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> frameworks are using YAML now. Easy, minimal, lightweight config is >>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>> the world is today & XML is not the way to go. On a related note, >>>>>>>> minimal >>>>>>>> config or even better, zero config is what most people are moving >>>>>>>> towards. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is a point I brought during my MS F/W comparison, everybody >>>>>>> moved or moving to YAML today. IMO for new products such as MSS, GW we >>>>>>> should use YAML/JSON from the beginning. Other advantage of YAML is we >>>>>>> don't need people to educate how to configure, use etc because people >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> already use YAML for everyday works. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks ! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 7:18 PM, Samisa Abeysinghe <[email protected] >>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 8:18 AM, Ramith Jayasinghe < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> are we going to take into account the whole migration effort ( >>>>>>>>>> for existing users) and the possible learning curve? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There is no migration required. It is a new product major version >>>>>>>>> and new platform version. And we are talking about product configs not >>>>>>>>> artefacts >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think we should review what exactly configurations we have (in >>>>>>>>>> each product) and how it will look in Yaml/Json? ( - and such a >>>>>>>>>> conversion >>>>>>>>>> would that lead to better user experience or just mess things up?) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 5:37 AM, Thilina Piyasundara < >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> IMO its better to move out from XML. But Yaml and Json have its >>>>>>>>>>> own disadvantages as well. In yaml you can mess the hole thing if >>>>>>>>>>> you miss >>>>>>>>>>> a single space/tab. In json you can't comment out a configuration >>>>>>>>>>> block. >>>>>>>>>>> Its better to have a UI to configure and save those configs in a >>>>>>>>>>> yaml or >>>>>>>>>>> json format specially when we have to deal with lots of >>>>>>>>>>> configuration >>>>>>>>>>> files. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> By the way, windows systems and python programs use a >>>>>>>>>>> configuration format called ini which is an old way of storing >>>>>>>>>>> configurations using name value pares with sections [1]. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 1. http://www.fcla.edu/z3950/everglades.html >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks and regards, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thilina Piyasundara >>>>>>>>>>> Systems Engineer >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Blog: thilina.piyasundara.org >>>>>>>>>>> Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/thilinapiyasundara >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> WSO2, Inc. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> <http://wso2.com/> >>>>>>>>>>> lean . enterprise . middleware >>>>>>>>>>> https://cloud.wso2.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 11:57 PM, Paul Fremantle <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I agree. I downloaded the MSS and C5 distros and I found the >>>>>>>>>>>> XML configs made them seem a little outdated. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 10 November 2015 at 18:06, Afkham Azeez <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I brought up this idea a few years ago as well and it got shot >>>>>>>>>>>>> down, and I thought of bringing this back again. More and more, >>>>>>>>>>>>> we are >>>>>>>>>>>>> starting to notice that the world is moving or has moved from >>>>>>>>>>>>> verbose XML >>>>>>>>>>>>> based configuration to more concise YAML based configuration. So >>>>>>>>>>>>> IMO, from >>>>>>>>>>>>> C5 based products onwards we have to move to YAML based config. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>>>>>>> Azeez >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Afkham Azeez* >>>>>>>>>>>>> Director of Architecture; WSO2, Inc.; http://wso2.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ >>>>>>>>>>>>> * <http://www.apache.org/>* >>>>>>>>>>>>> *email: **[email protected]* <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>> * cell: +94 77 3320919 <%2B94%2077%203320919>blog: * >>>>>>>>>>>>> *http://blog.afkham.org* <http://blog.afkham.org> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *twitter: **http://twitter.com/afkham_azeez* >>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://twitter.com/afkham_azeez> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *linked-in: **http://lk.linkedin.com/in/afkhamazeez >>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://lk.linkedin.com/in/afkhamazeez>* >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Lean . Enterprise . Middleware* >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Architecture mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Paul Fremantle >>>>>>>>>>>> Co-Founder, WSO2 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> blog: http://pzf.fremantle.org >>>>>>>>>>>> twitter.com/pzfreo >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> Architecture mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>> https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Architecture mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Ramith Jayasinghe >>>>>>>>>> Technical Lead >>>>>>>>>> WSO2 Inc., http://wso2.com >>>>>>>>>> lean.enterprise.middleware >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> E: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> P: +94 777542851 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Architecture mailing list >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Architecture mailing list >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> *Afkham Azeez* >>>>>>>> Director of Architecture; WSO2, Inc.; http://wso2.com >>>>>>>> Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ >>>>>>>> * <http://www.apache.org/>* >>>>>>>> *email: **[email protected]* <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> * cell: +94 77 3320919 <%2B94%2077%203320919>blog: * >>>>>>>> *http://blog.afkham.org* <http://blog.afkham.org> >>>>>>>> *twitter: **http://twitter.com/afkham_azeez* >>>>>>>> <http://twitter.com/afkham_azeez> >>>>>>>> *linked-in: **http://lk.linkedin.com/in/afkhamazeez >>>>>>>> <http://lk.linkedin.com/in/afkhamazeez>* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Lean . Enterprise . Middleware* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Architecture mailing list >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Sagara Gunathunga >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Architect; WSO2, Inc.; http://wso2.com >>>>>>> V.P Apache Web Services; http://ws.apache.org/ >>>>>>> Linkedin; http://www.linkedin.com/in/ssagara >>>>>>> Blog ; http://ssagara.blogspot.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Architecture mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Ramith Jayasinghe >>>>>> Technical Lead >>>>>> WSO2 Inc., http://wso2.com >>>>>> lean.enterprise.middleware >>>>>> >>>>>> E: [email protected] >>>>>> P: +94 777542851 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Architecture mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> *Afkham Azeez* >>>>> Director of Architecture; WSO2, Inc.; http://wso2.com >>>>> Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ >>>>> * <http://www.apache.org/>* >>>>> *email: **[email protected]* <[email protected]> >>>>> * cell: +94 77 3320919 <%2B94%2077%203320919>blog: * >>>>> *http://blog.afkham.org* <http://blog.afkham.org> >>>>> *twitter: **http://twitter.com/afkham_azeez* >>>>> <http://twitter.com/afkham_azeez> >>>>> *linked-in: **http://lk.linkedin.com/in/afkhamazeez >>>>> <http://lk.linkedin.com/in/afkhamazeez>* >>>>> >>>>> *Lean . Enterprise . Middleware* >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Architecture mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Architecture mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Architecture mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> ============================ >> Srinath Perera, Ph.D. >> http://people.apache.org/~hemapani/ >> http://srinathsview.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Architecture mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture >> >> > > > -- > Ramith Jayasinghe > Technical Lead > WSO2 Inc., http://wso2.com > lean.enterprise.middleware > > E: [email protected] > P: +94 777542851 > > > _______________________________________________ > Architecture mailing list > [email protected] > https://mail.wso2.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/architecture > > -- *Afkham Azeez* Director of Architecture; WSO2, Inc.; http://wso2.com Member; Apache Software Foundation; http://www.apache.org/ * <http://www.apache.org/>* *email: **[email protected]* <[email protected]> * cell: +94 77 3320919blog: **http://blog.afkham.org* <http://blog.afkham.org> *twitter: **http://twitter.com/afkham_azeez* <http://twitter.com/afkham_azeez> *linked-in: **http://lk.linkedin.com/in/afkhamazeez <http://lk.linkedin.com/in/afkhamazeez>* *Lean . Enterprise . Middleware*
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