On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 8:42 AM, CJ Aronson <[email protected]> wrote:
> Elvis.. > > I am sure with any policy folks will try to game the system. From my > experience with RIPE I think the community would not be pleased if the last > of the remaining /22s were all given to US companies for use in the US. > But who knows. > > I went to a colleague at the RIPE NCC to get information for this list. > Your summary that anyone can get as much address space as they want from > the RIPE NCC for 1600 Euros a year is not true > It's Euro1750 and not unlimited space. https://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-591 > and I wanted to make sure that for this discussion that we had a more > realistic assessment. If folks want to become RIPE members and > misrepresent how the address space is going to be used that's really up to > them. > > ----Cathy > > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 7:12 AM, Elvis Velea <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Cathy, >> >> how can one verify where address space is used? Do you verify the AS >> announcing it, and what if that AS is globally routed and it peers with >> various organisations within several service regions? Do you ping the >> address to see how long it takes for the Pong to come back to you? >> These RIR bordes are artificial and have nothing to do with operational >> reality. One can route the address space it gets from/to anywhere in the >> world, especially if it has a Tier1/2 provider which offers global services. >> >> There has been a simple workaround available for years. Have a look at >> the RIPE Database split files and see how many inetnums have country code >> US. You will be surprised :) >> You can always announce a /16 in the RIPE region and two /17s in the ARIN >> region and then the 'requirement' of having the space announced in the RIPE >> region is satisfied, right? >> It's just that all the traffic will flow to the router announcing the two >> /17s. >> Plus, the RIPE NCC allocates only a /22 from the last /8. So, if you >> become a member and have a router somewhere in Europe where you will need >> to use at least a few addresses and therefore you qualify to receive the >> /22. RIPE NCC will not complain if the /24 used for that router/equipment >> is announced in the RIPE region and the rest in an other region where you >> may have other equipment and/or customers. >> Additionally, once you are a member and request a transfer, the only >> thing you need to fill in is the transfer agreement template and confirm >> that you are requesting the transfer in order to make assignments from the >> allocation. It does not matter to whom you make those assignments or where >> these will be used. >> >> http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/resource-management/ipv4-transfers/transfer-agreement-template >> Lastly, the RIPE NCC SSA (the contract) does not say anything about where >> the resources can be used and the _current policies_ are at best *vague*. >> >> For example, the RIPE IPv4 policy says: >> "1.0 Introduction >> The RIPE NCC is an independent association and serves as one of five >> Regional Internet Registries (RIRs). Its service region incorporates >> Europe, the Middle East, and Central Asia. The RIPE NCC is responsible for >> the allocation and assignment of Internet Protocol (IP) address space, >> Autonomous System Numbers (ASNs) and the management of reverse domain names >> within this region. >> [...] >> 1.1 Scope >> This document describes the policies for the responsible management of >> globally unique IPv4 Internet address space in the RIPE NCC service region. >> The policies documented here apply to all IPv4 address space allocated and >> assigned by the RIPE NCC." >> >> There is no document saying that the address space allocated by the RIPE >> NCC can only be used in the RIPE service region. >> >> As far as I have seen ARIN is only now trying to limit the use of the >> address space it allocates to it's service region. I do not think a similar >> policy proposal would fly in the RIPE community. >> >> We live in a global world, most large companies have operations in more >> than one region. I think these organisations should have only one RIR >> handle their addresses and the RIRs should mirror the databases of the >> other RIRs to avoid duplicate registration. My impression is that the RIPE >> NCC is the only RIR that is currently mirroring the other RIR databases and >> making steps towards what I think should become at some point a unique >> point of data collection. >> >> cheers, >> elvis >> >> PS: the views above are my own and have nothing to do with my previous or >> current employer >> >> >> On 05/06/14 14:23, CJ Aronson wrote: >> >> I asked a colleague at the RIPE NCC regarding this question of getting >> address space from RIPE. >> >> She said, "We accept organisations that are >> incorporated in other regions as members. But we require that the >> address space we allocate will be used/announced in the RIPE NCC service >> region." >> >> ----Cathy >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 8:31 PM, CJ Aronson <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Let's be clear.. the RIPE NCC will only give a one-time /22 for your >>> 1600 Euros/year. RIPE has always made applicants prove a business >>> presense in the region and I believe that's what the >>> " >>> >>> - >>> >>> The name of the "Chamber of Commerce" where your company is >>> registered >>> - >>> >>> For example, Companies House, KvK etc." >>> >>> Is referring to. The link is here for your reference: >>> >>> http://www.ripe.net/lir-services/member-support/become-a-member/application >>> >>> You'll have to apply and see. >>> >>> If you want more than a /22 you'll have to go to the transfer market. >>> >>> ----Cathy >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 8:24 PM, Elvis Velea <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi John, >>>> >>>> >>>> On 05/06/14 04:05, John Von Stein wrote: >>>> >>>> Elvis, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So does that mean a US based ISP such as QxC wanted / needed an >>>> additional IPv4 allocation we could simply go to RIPE and get the IPv4 we >>>> want/need? >>>> >>>> >>>> yup :) and only for €1600/year and with no transfer fees :) >>>> >>>> cheers, >>>> elvis >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> John W. Von Stein >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> [image: cid:sigimg0@791f5d9d52446f85c6fed00adec61823] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 102 NE 2nd Street >>>> >>>> Suite 136 >>>> >>>> Boca Raton, FL 33432 >>>> >>>> Office: 561-288-6989 >>>> >>>> www.QxCcommunications.com <http://www.qxccommunications.com/> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and >>>> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are >>>> addressed. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected] >>>> <[email protected]>] On Behalf Of Elvis Velea >>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 9:35 PM >>>> To: David Huberman >>>> Cc: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi David, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> even further... for those that do not know yet, any legal or private >>>> person can become a member of the RIPE NCC while the ARIN >>>> policies/procedures still require a company to have a legal presence in the >>>> ARIN region in order to request resources. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> And, btw.. have I already mentioned that the RIPE Community has >>>> completely removed the demonstrated need from their policy? I think I was >>>> only discussing this matter in the APNIC mailing lists and maybe those >>>> subscribed to this mailing list should also be aware of. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> cheers, >>>> >>>> elvis >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 05/06/14 03:30, David Huberman wrote: >>>> >>>> > I agree completely, Elvis. There's an argument to be made that if >>>> ARIN won't be flexible with transfer policy, that RIPE becomes the most >>>> useful RIR for operators to work within. There's a further argument that's >>>> been made that the time for regional IRs may be passed (past?) and that >>>> IETF should review the situation. >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > David R Huberman >>>> >>>> > Microsoft Corporation >>>> >>>> > Senior IT/OPS Program Manager (GFS) >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > ________________________________________ >>>> >>>> > From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on >>>> >>>> > behalf of Elvis Velea <[email protected]> >>>> >>>> > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2014 6:21:52 PM >>>> >>>> > To: [email protected] >>>> >>>> > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] About needs basis in 8.3 transfers >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > Hi David, >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > On 05/06/14 02:21, David Huberman wrote: >>>> >>>> >> We're going to be a cross-roads very soon. ARIN is going to >>>> exhaust, and network operators will be unable to obtain additional IPv4 >>>> address blocks from ARIN. At that point, the most obvious solution for >>>> IPv4 needs will be the market. >>>> >>>> > And then, they will be able to register as RIPE NCC members (LIRs) >>>> and >>>> >>>> > receive as many IP addresses as they want without having to prove any >>>> >>>> > demonstrated need. All they will need to do is to confirm that they >>>> >>>> > will use these addresses for themselves or their customers. >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >> Proper stewardship of the ARIN function demands that ARIN policy >>>> adjust to what happens in the market. It's not the other way around, if >>>> only because that's not how markets work. >>>> >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> The ARIN CEO, ARIN's General Counsel, the Harvard economist ARIN >>>> pays, professors who study markets, brokers who operate in the market, and >>>> buyers and sellers who buy and sell in the market have all told the ARIN >>>> community the same story for around 5 years now: the market is going to act >>>> as a market, and ARIN policy needs to be ready for it; ARIN policy needs to >>>> make sense with the dynamics of the market. >>>> >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> It's hard to know how to argue with operators like Owen and the >>>> >>>> >> Google folks who all say the opposite; that ARIN policy should stick >>>> >>>> >> to the same ideals as 1995 (important ideals for a very long time!) >>>> >>>> >> and not adjust. I fear the results of this kind of ostracism :( >>>> >>>> > Well, then let them slowly kill the ARIN function. If all ARIN >>>> members >>>> >>>> > can no longer get resources and they stop paying and go to the >>>> >>>> > cheapest RIR (which btw is RIPE NCC with EUR1600/year no matter how >>>> >>>> > many resources one has) and get as many resources they want... what >>>> do >>>> >>>> > you think will happen? >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > cheers, >>>> >>>> > elvis >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> > PPML >>>> >>>> > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN >>>> >>>> > Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >>>> >>>> > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>> >>>> > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>>> >>>> > Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>>> PPML >>>> >>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN >>>> Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >>>> >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>> >>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>>> >>>> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> PPML >>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>> http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>>> Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > PPML > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml > Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues. > -- Cheers, McTim "A name indicates what we seek. An address indicates where it is. A route indicates how we get there." Jon Postel
_______________________________________________ PPML You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues.
