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>if the intent is to make non-native Assamese interested speaking
Assamese the way Assamese want them to, there >ought to some sort of
guidance, a dictionary with this new way of pronouncing?
That is not the intent though.
Anybody who lives in Assam, and speaks Assamese,
knows how to pronounce Oxom.
Question is, do they know how to pronunce
Asom?
How do you pronounce Asom?
RB
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 8:36
AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] Book on life, ideals
of Sankaradeva released(The Assam Tribune, 1...
Hi Ram:
Dilip might be on the mark to you, but both of you miss the point I was
making, which is: WHY is it that Oxomiya names, words and sounds, as spoken
by
contemporary Oxomiya people are somehow NOT legitimate enough for a
segment of Assam's intelligentsia, so that they HAVE to use Sanskritized forms
of those names, words and sounds, before they transliterate them into
English?
You could NOT answer that, even though you seem to tacitly support it, or
at least have been trying desperately to find some justification for it.
Dilip, no doubt experiencing discomfiture, tried to change the subject , and I
am sure it came as a welcome relief for you :-).
Yes what Dilip raised is an issue, but a DIFFERENT issue. It has nothing
to do with what we have been debating/discussing
c-da
At 9:37 PM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
DD's assumptions are on the mark. If Hindi
were to become more influential then logically the target market would be
Hindiwallas.
Would we then suddenly start trying to find
alphabets in Hindi tomorrow with fit the mold (something close to
X)?
Also, if the intent is to make non-native
Assamese interested speaking Assamese the way Assamese want them to, there
ought to some sort of guidance, a dictionary with this new way of
pronouncing? If there isn't, that I think should be the first step - so that
some day that would become the standard for people to use.
--Ram
On 9/13/06, Dilip/Dil Deka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Let's assume for a moment that Assam remains in India for a
few more decades and Hindi language keeps the position it has now.
:-)
How would you transliterate "Oxom" in Hindi script to get
Hindi speakers to pronounce the name like they do in Assam? How do you do
it in Bengali?
Just my tangential thought since so much has been written
about transliteration in English script. Think about it.
Like Sarangapani said the average person in Assam does not
care how you write "Oxom" in English. That's why it is a
non-issue in Assam. Only some of the expatriates are losing sleep over the
issue.
Dilip
======================================================
Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Ram:
>There is no rationale.
*** My point exactly :-).
>One think so, as they ought to be ones telling us how to
spell and pronounce.
*** And here enters the sheep factor: Because someone used
it in the past, without any rationale, should thinking and able
individuals in the present time who can see better, ought to keep
following the same path too? Would be the new rationale? That in
my book would be absurd. Won't it for you too?
>Just wondering. How is that this is now suddenly a
hot-button issue?
*** Because of contemporary issues involving asserting one's
ethnic identity and correcting misnomers imposed by
outsiders.
>How did people like K.K. Handique handle this? Or others
for that matter?
*** I don't know. And I don't NEED to know, because it is
way too simple a matter for anyone to seek 'expert' validation from. And
no one else should need that either.
At any event, if I read correctly here in Assam Net at one
time, KKH was an advocate of using the 'x' letter for transliteration of
our 'xo' sound. Furthermore, times change, and so do customs, including
style of writing, spelling, what-have-you. And WE have to do the right
things by our times, not someone who has been long gone.
c-da
At 4:16 PM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da,
>But the question is WHY? What is the logic, the
rationale?
There is no rationale. Such issues are only relevant for
the intelligentsia. For the common folks this is just another nuance.
Tell me why a khetiok working in his parched lands would want to apply
any logic in this regard?
>*** Do I take it therefore, that "well-known literary
figures' lead here is the driving factor?
One think so, as they ought to be ones telling us how to
spell and pronounce.
Just wondering. How is that this is now suddenly a
hot-button issue?
How did people like K.K. Handique handle this? Or others
for that matter?
How would KKH have written 'Oxom' or 'Oxom Xahityo Xobha'
or
even 'Xonkordeu' when they wrote in English? There were no
X's then.
Just curious
--Ram
On 9/13/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Many people often pronounce it one way (like
Xonkrordev or Xonkrordeb), but >when they write it in English,
they write it differently (Sankaradeva).
*** I noticed. Tell me something I don't know
:-).
But the question is WHY? What is the logic, the
rationale?
>And they did NOT come up with these spellings in
English all by themselves, but >because of the practice of
the literary figures and the GOA.
*** And what is THEIR logic?
>their lack of logic or they
are just
'sheep'
>as you suggest, is open to question.
*** Why is it still OPEN to question Ram? What part of
my logic is incomprehensible :-)?
>'cause thats how it has been probably written by
well-known literry figures.
*** Do I take it therefore, that "well-known literary
figures' lead here is the driving factor? And had these "well-known"
people used a Bengalified version or a Hindified version of
Assamese sounds before transliterating them in English, the sheep
would have followed them just the same, and sympathetic Assam
Netters would have manufactured convoluted justifications for them
just the same ?
Call me dense, but that is the part I can't dig Ram.
That inability to process ordinary logic, particularly by people who
ought to be or could be expected to be :-).
c-da
At 12:59 PM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da.
>>---why they should follow your or my path to
spellings and transliteration.
>*** Anyone endowed with an ability to reason, and
knowledgeably ( about >the subject matter) ought to go by what
is LOGICAL, not necessarily by >what Rajen suggests or I
support
They have the ability to reason well, but they just
consider this as something very important at this point of
time.
>But if you don't and you are not ashamed of
pronouncing it >Xonkrordev or as in Upper Assam as Xonkordeu,
then you ought to >transliterate it the way you pronounce
it.
Many people often pronounce it one way (like
Xonkrordev or Xonkrordeb), but when they write it in English, they
write it differently (Sankaradeva). And they did NOT come up with
these spellings in English all by themselves, but because of the
practice of the literary figures and the
GOA.
Now, whether all this is due to their lack of logic or
they are just 'sheep'
as you suggest, is open to question.
I think, common folks just haven't given it much
thought and are not interested in making this a hot
issue.
>*** WHY so ? Why does one write Sankaradeva?
Can you explain :-)?
'cause thats how it has been probably written by
well-known literry figures. Don't think common folks had some
agenda of pushing Sanskrit or English when they write that
way.
To you or me, writing that way may be an issue with
Assamese identity, but maybe not for others (at least it looks
that way)
>But that does NOT make it a non-issue. Origins of
all good things and >movements could be traced to a thought of
a single individual
No, it doesn't make it a non-issue. Noble as such
things are, one does need support. On the practical side, anything
like this does need support and interest - without which, you will
be spitting in the wind.
>> There was absolutely NO interest
-
>*** So?
Same as above
>Tell you what: That kind of tenacity and faith in
my own sense of what is >right and what is not, has served me
very well:-)!
So it has for me. But, I wonder what it does for the
"cause" :)
--Ram
On 9/13/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Ram:
>---why they should follow your or my path to
spellings and transliteration.
*** Anyone endowed with an ability to reason, and
knowledgeably ( about the subject matter) ought to go by what is
LOGICAL, not necessarily by what Rajen suggests or I support.
Rajen's or my role are little--we just help clarify the
issues.
Assamese people do not call their icon
Sankaradeva, do they? Do you? If you or others do, they ought to
stick with that transliteration. But if you don't and you are
not ashamed of pronouncing it Xonkrordev or as in Upper Assam as
Xonkordeu, then you ought to transliterate it the way you
pronounce it.
Is it a profound conundrum? Maybe so, to some. It
certainly is NOT for me. Ought not to be for you.
Should we follow like sheep? I would submit, we
ought not to.
>Never thought, I would hear that from you? What
then, do you recommend that >this public do?
*** Attempt to learn!
>So, this is really NOT about transliteration at
all, is it?
*** WHY so ? Why does one write Sankaradeva?
Can you explain :-)?
>You know, some of us
actually took out an online petition against this
name issue. Want to know the
results?
*** I know. We have done that on a number of issues
with similar results. But that does NOT make it a non-issue.
Origins of all good things and movements could be traced to a
thought of a single individual.
> There was absolutely NO interest
-
*** So?
>Well, I just reminded,
once again, some of us were taken for another ride. I am still
sore from that rough ride
:)
*** Par for the course Ram! Do I need to retell
accounts of my rough rides :-)? But still I would
not back down from what I believe in to be correct, do
I?
Tell you what: That kind of tenacity and faith in my
own sense of what is right and what is not, has served me very
well:-)!
c-da
At 10:43 AM -0500 9/13/06, Ram Sarangapani
wrote:
C'da,
Bhuban da and Manoj do make some good points. Yes,
you and Barua are probably right about the 'subject mentality'
and also how 'Assam' got mis-transliterated.
Like it or not, OXX has been
bestowed the 'literary authority' as it consists of most
of the famous literary figures in Assam.
Now, you can say -why should we listen to the
dictates of OXX or the GOA etc? Well, the question can be
turned around and the common man on the street can well ask
why they should follow your or my path to spellings and
transliteration.
Now, (even if they are all wrong, and say you,
Barua, and some others are right), how would non-literary
types like myself (or Monoj - sorry Monoj) propose a
drastically different spelling or go against the best literary
minds in Assam?
>the ignorant public takes it lying
down,
Never thought, I would hear that from you? What
then, do you recommend that this public do?
>It is those who have no self esteem, continue
to kow-tow to >superior language gods, be it Xongskrit, be
it English.
So, this is really NOT about transliteration at
all, is it? It is more about the Assamese identity. Why
not sell that idea straight out of the box, instead of mixing
it up with transliteration - after all the common man is
ignorant :).
You know, some of us actually took out an online
petition against this name issue. Want to know the
results?
Well, 5 voted for it, and no one else cared one
way or the other. There was absolutely NO
interest - even from those who were touting
opposition to the GOA's changing the name to Asom, ga-ga -ing
all the way, and egging us to start the
petition.
Well, I just reminded, once again, some of us were
taken for another ride. I am still sore from that rough ride
:)
--Ram
On 9/13/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Dear BK:
I can't see HOW the Oxom Xahityo Xobha could
become the sole custodian of the Assamese language or the
Assamese identity.
It is typical of desi-demokrasy, where elections
seem to bestow dictatorial/monarchical powers to bureaucrats
and elected reps., and the ignorant public takes it lying
down, while the intelligentsia, similarly clueless remain
invisible and silent.
>Rajen ought to get a full hearing as anybody
else.
*** It is NOT just Rajen's pet peeve. It is an
issue for all Assamese who care about its 'ostitwo', its
claim to an identity all its own, without apologies, without
having to bow to ANYONE.
It is those who have no self esteem, continue to
kow-tow to superior language gods, be it Xongskrit, be it
English.
*** About the 'Sankaradeva' spelling for
example, could it have been that when the first British
colonial masters transliterated the name, were also people
who
were Xongskrit learners, and could not separate
the Assamese from its Sanskrit
connections? Thus they chose to Sanskritize an
Assamese name, when they transliterated them in
English.
Once that happened, the subject people, and even
their intellectuals albeit similarly burdened by a subject
mentality, could not imagine transliterating Xongkordev.
Instead they followed the steps of their colonial
masters.
And to this day, some, including for example the
AT, cannot imagine breaking from that tradition of colonial
servitude, just like many of Assam's
intelligentsia.
But why should WE?
Best.
c
At 9:56 AM -0400 9/13/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="UTF-8"
Content-Language:
en
Dear MKD/Mike et al
It
appears the State Government sought Asam Sahitya Sabha's
views on the matter of renaming Assam. It is possible
without the benefit of wide discussion and debate the
Sahitya Sabha recommended the change to Asom and the State
Government accepted it.
Perhaps even now Asam Sahitya Sabha can take
up the matter again. It is not too late as the necessary
Constitutional amendments are yet to take place. Rajen
ought to get a full hearing as anybody
else.
Regards
Bhuban
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