Re: [Assam] End this disease called ULFA

[Chan Mahanta]

Ram:

First of, the ulfa cannot really be considered "revolionaries". A 
revolution (Like the French etc) are a >mass-scale uprising of some 
sort against an establishment. The ulfa (as some would like to 
elevate) is >nowhere close to that lable


*** It was not *I* who assigned that label and then attempted to 
demolish it. You can or JS can or any old fool can arbitrarily assign 
a label to anyone, then demolish it, couldn't they? But what VALUE 
would that have?

Imagine me assigning a label on you as, say, an Indian patriot, and 
then go on to tell the world that you are not an Indian to begin 
with, that you are an American. That you claim you are are an 
Assamese, but  by parental ethnicity you are really a Tamil.

But what value would such an argument have ? Would I be wrong in 
surmising that it would be zero, zit, nada?

You catch my drift?


 >And yes, C'da why is these "home-grown" revoltionaries hell bent 
on killing and looting from Assamese people (and don't forget 
Dhemaji) - now there was a great example of your revolutionaries 
giving up blood & treasure (of course, it matters little that blood 
spilled was not theirs).


*** What you see as looting, could be presented by ULFA as TAXING, 
tax that the payer does not pay to what is fancied to be the 
'legitimate' government.  What the two-book-keeping entities do not 
pay to GoI, goes to ULFA, who employs those left unemployed by 
India's rob-the-poor-masses-to-enrich-the-few-economy, keeps the 
economy running by buying what it needs to feed the soldiers.   I 
hope you read the World Bank report on black-money's corrosive effect 
on the Indian economy.  Further more  on the looting front, how do 
you see the Indian elected reps' role, in looting the treasury?

They are WORSE offenders, because they steal wearing that robe of 
respectability as the people's reps., on the sly. But I see no 
outrage in that from the 'fair and balanced crowd',or demands to send 
them to prison, or to send their sympathizers to prison. In fact I 
will not be surprised if the scions of some of these thieves in white 
are not right here amongst us urging ULFA sympathizers to be sent to 
prison. We surely know that most everybody who holds some important 
position in Indian govts. have a sopn or daughter or a close relative 
in some western countries as immigrant, 'green-card holder' or 
citizens or H1Bs. So much for their faith in their nation.


Yes, Dhemaji is a stigma to ULFA. They should not have done that, IF 
it WAS indeed ULFA who did that deliberately. But parties to warfare 
do terrible things, sometimes willfully, at other times 
inadvertently. IF I remember correctly you took great pride in the 
Indian military's repeated OOpses  on its civilian killings in fake 
encounters, as if those were slips, that never happened before, or 
never will in the future.

Do you see a difference between GoI and ULFA?  And if GOI can do no 
better than ULFA, where does its apologists get that  halo of 
'holier-than-thou',  to sport?

In fact GOI  and its stooges, Assam govts. past or present have 
actively contributed to such mindless violence. Had Assam Govt. 
leaders NOT attempted to prove that uLFA had no teeth by putting 
these children of Dhemaji in harms way, in spite of warnings by ULFA 
not to hold those parades, this tragedy could not have happened. Not 
to justify it however. But I don't recall hearing from the 'fair and 
balanced crowd'  a word on WHO was EXPLOITING these children.

Then there is this other  thing that the thoughtful should not avoid 
considering: When the Indian army operations lead to separating the 
leadership from the operating elements, it creates an environment of 
private entrepreneurship by inexperienced and poorly educated 
rank-and-file manning the battlefronts. How do you know that it was 
sanctioned by ULFA leadership, and not impromptu action by someone at 
location? That is war for you.


We have all been hearing about this big cause for a long time. Then 
why is that the whole of Assam >have  NOT joined  and or signed on 
the dotted line? Do you know why?

*** Of course I do. In fact anyone able to reason ought to: That is 
because the establishment is not going to give up its rights to the 
feeding trough. And GoI has been pumping unaccounted for billions to 
keep that sector on its side. Never mind the rest.  I remember 
Chittaranjan's assurance that a reasoned public dialogue on the need 
for Assam's sovereignty is not impossible in Assam media. But he 
could not get my posts aired in Assam, could he? I also tried, but 
could not.  The fear of reprisals from the govt. is present and 
powerful.


 >>That is how it works in a violent CONFLICT. That is WHY it is a 
violent CONFLICT.

Whew! Now that somehow makes us all feel better. Of course, all the 
people of Assam gave the green signal for ULFA to go violent and now 
it (the ulfa) acts as the sole torch bearer for God & country.


*** That was NOT meant to make you feel better Ram. It was to point 
out what you could not see, even though you it is staring at your 
face.


One question, if these 'revs' are NOT even able to fight from their 
home base (that they are forced to go >to another country to do so), 
what odds do you, as a pragmatist, give them for any kind of win?

*** I am not a military strategist, unlike say JS, who obviously 
knows better than the Indian military brass
past and present, who have said over and over again that it is not a 
battle they can win and that only a political solution will end the 
conflict. Perhaps JS will explain how ULFA can be defeated 
militarily.  Or how their sympathizers should be rounded up and 
thrown in prison. Maybe that Congress MP who recommended that for 
those who calls for a referendum, like MR Goswami, could explain that 
--or the need for his vehement back-tracking after that. Do you think 
the ULFA sympathizers were terrified of that threat in Assam ?


One question, if these 'revs' are NOT even able to fight from their 
home base (that they are forced to go >to another country to do so), 
what odds do you, as a pragmatist, give them for any kind of win?

*** I understand your  quandary as I do of those others in your camp. 
All you are reduced to doing is taunting ULFA or ULFA sympathizers, 
or mouthing  off bravado-laden but meaningless slogans.   One would 
think something is  missing here. Question is WHAT?  I know the 
answer, but I will let you figure that out by yourself . I like to 
think you are eminently capable of. And when you do, maybe you will 
be kind enough to share that with those in your camp who are not that 
well equipped :-).

Take care.

c-da













At 7:40 PM -0600 5/14/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da

 >*** Is this for a fact or a demonstration  of  profound ignorance 
of modern history?
 >Would you like to explain?

Let me try!

First of, the ulfa cannot really be considered "revolionaries". A 
revolution (Like the French etc) are a mass-scale uprising of some 
sort against an establishment. The ulfa (as some would like to 
elevate) is nowhere close to that lable

So, in that context, modern revolutions have always been about 
"protecting the masses" against tyrants. In the Assam context, can 
you give some stark examples where such a thing has happened? And 
yes, C'da why is these "home-grown" revoltionaries hell bent on 
killing and looting from Assamese people (and don't forget Dhemaji) 
- now there was a great example of your revolutionaries giving up 
blood & treasure (of course, it matters little that blood spilled 
was not theirs).

 > I suspect you and JS intended SOME of the ULFA leaders, didn't 
you? Assuming that  was what  it was, let me ask you this: If it 
were you, Ram >or JS, in the position of those ULFA leaders, what 
would you do? Play STUPID and get arrested or get erased in some 
encounter, real or fake? Is >this some kind of a question to make 
the ULFA leaders look  like 'cowards'? If it is, do you think it is 
working?

If the 'leaders' were holed up in B'desh and making war 
plans/strategic plans against the big, bad ogre called India, it may 
have carried some semblence of resptability - but to hole 
up elsewhere, goad/egg other to the battles, and all the while amass 
huge personal wealth, (as reported by the US think tank - Stratfor. 
com), getting help from BD intel and ISI (who will just as easily 
slit an Assamese throat as they would an "Indian") is beyond me.

So, now this "holing up" in Bangladesh is really a strategic plan - 
could have knocked me out with a feather! How could I have missed 
that

 >First off, if 'THEY' were residing in a foreign land, why is it 
that India and Indians claim
 >ULFA is fighting in Assam? Isn't that a contradiction?

I am just trying here - don't know exactly what JS meant.

Why is this a contradiction - the leaders stay in BD - making the 
big war plans, while the "low-level" cadres do the dirty job in 
Assam.

 >*** Another abjectly dumb question again. These are people 
fighting and dying for a cause.
 >You may not agree with their cause.

We have all been hearing about this big cause for a long time. Then 
why is that the whole of Assam have  NOT joined 
and or signed on the dotted line? Do you know why?

 >That is how it works in a violent CONFLICT. That is WHY it is a 
violent CONFLICT.

Whew! Now that somehow makes us all feel better. Of course, all the 
people of Assam gave the green signal for ULFA to go violent and now 
it (the ulfa) acts as the sole torch bearer for God & country.

One question, if these 'revs' are NOT even able to fight from their 
home base (that they are forced to go to another country to do so), 
what odds do you, as a pragmatist, give them for any kind of win?

Even the country these people take refuge in (BD) is not able to 
take on the bad boy on the block (India)  what are the chances for 
the "revs". Do you think perhaps, that there is no fun for them to 
end this 'insurgency Kamadhenu'. Whatever will they do if this all 
ends - Work for a living? Good grief ! :)

--Ram



On 5/14/07, Chan Mahanta 
<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Ram:


Just out of curiosity:



 >Nowhere in the history of any struggle have the revolutionaries
killed their own people in one hand and talked of fighting for peace,





*** Is this for a fact or a demonstration  of  profound ignorance of 
modern history? Would you like to explain?







 >- Why do they reside in a foreign country, the population of which is

 >creating economic and social disorder in our state?


*** This is another bright question no doubt and someone of my 
caliber would be hard-pressed to answer. But since you press the 
point , allow me to take a shot ( pun intended):


        First off, if 'THEY' were residing in a foreign land, why is 
it that India and Indians claim
        ULFA is fighting in Assam? Isn't that a contradiction?


        I suspect you and JS intended SOME of the ULFA leaders, 
didn't you? Assuming that
        was what  it was, let me ask you this: If it were you, Ram 
or JS, in the position of those
        ULFA leaders, what would you do? Play STUPID and get 
arrested or get erased in some
        encounter, real or fake? Is this some kind of a question to 
make the ULFA leaders look
        like 'cowards'? If it is, do you think it is working?


        If you asked me it is a pretty dumb question, really. And 
dumber expectation.





 >- They seek whereabouts of missing ULFA members, what about all the

 >people they have killed. Are they going to give the reasons ?





*** Another abjectly dumb question again. These are people fighting 
and dying for a cause. You may not agree with their cause. That is 
how it works in a violent CONFLICT. That is WHY it is a violent 
CONFLICT. One side does not agree with the other and neither siude 
is asbout to play dead. Under the circumstances, expecting an 
antagonist here to play NEUTRAL ( or UNBIASED to echo the favorite 
kharkhowa/desi terminology) demonstrates an absence of an ability to 
reason like an adult with ordinary intelligence. But I have trouble 
believing that about JS and I know  you do not fit that mold. So 
what is the explanation Ram?


Anyone expecting an answer to questions like that would merely be 
demonstrating their living in denial, unable to accept the widely 
prevalent and discernible  truths that surround them like so nmany 
Indians seem to do.


I hate to see you act so disoriented a desi, Ram :-)


c-da
















At 1:00 PM -0600 5/14/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:

C'da



 >Why would anyone  want to go pick a fight with someone who would 
proclaim "---



There is another way to look at it. Perhaps, one could address this 
utter frustration with ulfa's antics and the 'ulfa did nor wrong' 
crowd.  The recommendations from JS may be strong, but there is a 
lot of truth in what he says about the unstable situation in the 
state created by ULFA - and the fact that the state (as it is 
overburdened with other problems) is now having face the 
"insurgency" problem.



Why can't ulfa sympathizers answers at least some of the questions 
like JS asks/comments:



Nowhere in the history of any struggle have the revolutionaries
killed their own people in one hand and talked of fighting for peace,


- Why do they reside in a foreign country, the population of which is

creating economic and social disorder in our state?


- They seek whereabouts of missing ULFA members, what about all the

people they have killed. Are they going to give the reasons ?



These and other questions have been asked before  - and we have YET 
to receive prompt, short (no spin) ansers

So, just Ignoring, the "punishment" as JS demnds  is really NOT a 
solution. Why can't someone just answer to the questions.



-Ram


















On 5/14/07, Chan Mahanta 
<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 >JS has thrown the gauntlet, now its up to them to pick it up :)




*** It could be considered such only when there is even a modicum of 
SUBSTANCE or realism behind a charge.  Why would anyone  want to go 
pick a fight with someone who would  proclaim "---The only solution 
left, I believe, is to eliminate every ULFA member and put all their 
sympathizers behind bars. " It would be like challenging an Indian 
who would put a man on the Moon in 2010; or recommend that all those 
who do not agree with him be banished to 'koliyapani'; wouldn't it?




c-da










At 11:49 AM -0600 5/14/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:

Hehehe C'da,



I knew that would catch your attention. What JS says maybe an 
extreme outburst, probably from someone young - but that is how many 
of the younger generation in Assam feel. What kind of answers do you 
have for them - or do you think their feelings ought to just brushed 
aside?



 >But, I will really like to see some die-hard sympathizers put JS 
in >his place :) :).



C'da - you are expecting too much out of me.

JS, right or wrong, has made a stand. Now, the ball is in the other 
court. People like me will sit this out for a while atleast and see 
what happens. At some point, I will come in to defend JS if he needs 
it - I have a feeling, he won't. He has done good so far.



 >If audacity and the willingness to vent -- whatever that might be, 
?are all it takes to resolve problems of this kind, then there 
would >have been no problem left in Assam , not to mention India.



No, they are not - but on this net, its a rare commodity.



 >instead of passing the buck to them despicable ULFA >sympathizers, 
who will only make the issue more muddy  :-)?



Me? Are they turning to me now? Something is really rotten in 
Denmark:), and no, I am not passing the buck here - as I ain't no 
sympathazer. I would expect them sympathizers to be up in arms even 
if they circle the wagons and make it muddier:)



JS has thrown the gauntlet, now its up to them to pick it up :)



--Ram


On 5/14/07, Chan Mahanta 
<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi Ram:




Saw your comments to Sharma's anguished outburst with his wishful 
recommendations and conclusions.




Good that Sharma is letting off steam.  But as an informed and 
experienced NRA, I would have hoped to see you explaining to Sharma 
the profound flaws in his line of thinking, even though I know you 
are unable to free your own thought processes entirely from a blind 
devotion to the derelict Indian state  :-).




If audacity and the willingness to vent -- whatever that might be, 
are all it takes to resolve problems of this kind, then there would 
have been no problem left in Assam , not to mention India.




So, what is missing?




Don't you think you, as someone more knowledgeable, and more 
experienced than obviously Sharma is,; have an obligation to help 
him see things in a more mature light; instead of passing the buck 
to them despicable ULFA sympathizers, who will only make the issue 
more muddy  :-)?




c-da




























At 6:04 AM -0600 5/14/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:

Welcome JS to the Assamnet. That was a pretty straight forward 
post, if there was one, in these forums in a long time. I welcome 
that fresh air of audacity :)



There are a few die-hard ulfa supporters and sympathizers in this 
forum too.  I am sure some of them will respond to your post, and so 
will wait to see waht they write.



--Ram





On 5/14/07, Jyotirmoy Sharma 
<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

After reading about the endless sequence of bomb blasts that this
terrorist outfit is causing throughout Assam I cannot see how a
sensible person can ever think of negotiating with such a terrorist

outfit. The only solution left, I believe, is to eliminate every ULFA

member and put all their sympathizers behind bars. Those living

abroad and found assisting the outfit in any way should be barred
from entering Assam.

Nowhere in the history of any struggle have the revolutionaries
killed their own people in one hand and talked of fighting for peace,
prosperity and freedom on the other. What is even more surprising is
that there are groups(read PCPIA and others) who have openly become
the spokesperson of the outfit. They are never short in condemning
when the Army kills a terrorist but hardly raise a voice when
innocent people are getting slaughtered in their bomb blasts. Yes, it
is true that the Army has killed and tortured innocent people in
Assam but then the Army wouldn't be there in Assam if we didn't have
the disease in the first place.

Some questions which a pro-ULFA supporter may care to answer:

- Why do they reside in a foreign country, the population of which is
creating economic and social disorder in our state?
- Why don't they fight the Indian Army but hide in their holes when
confronted? Why do human rights become a big issue when their members
are killed and not when innocents are getting maimed and killed by
their bomb attacks at public places?
- Why do they plant bombs in public places and kill innocent people?
- They seek whereabouts of missing ULFA members, what about all the
people they have killed. Are they going to give the reasons ?

This problem has gone on for too long. If Punjab militancy could be
eliminated I don't see why Assam should be different. Assam is better
off with the freedom we have under India than under these terrorists
called ULFA.

Jyotirmoy


_______________________________________________
assam mailing list
<mailto:assam@assamnet.org> assam@assamnet.org
<http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org>http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org



_______________________________________________
assam mailing list
<mailto:assam@assamnet.org>assam@assamnet.org
<http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org>http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org









_______________________________________________
assam mailing list
assam@assamnet.org
http://assamnet.org/mailman/listinfo/assam_assamnet.org