From: Mike Borgelt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>On the contrary, a few people with recognised PPL's doing ONE launch a day 
>each shouldn't have too much trouble operating just about anywhere.

On the contrary, non-self-launching glider operations are a problem at all 
airfields regardless of the qualifications of the pilots.  Let's test your 
claim.  Bring your glider down to Bankstown or Hoxton Park next weekend - or 
even just go down the road to Archerfield.  You've got the PPL, take a 
launch next Saturday with your mate the tug owner with the PPL.  They may 
well let you do it once but I wouldn't try it again the next Saturday.

>I can well understand power operations having a problem with people >who 
>don't even have licenses or passed the written exams that PPL's do being 
>worried about a gliding operation.

On the contrary, we (power pilots) don't have problems operating with people 
who are appropriately qualified and authorised by CASA and its delegates.  
We know that competence and attitude is what's important, not bits of paper. 
  The problem is that some types of traffic just don't fit very well no 
matter how qualified the pilots.

> >Richmond is very controlled and the RAAF, of course, won't deal >with 
>individuals.

No comment? Guess I was right about the RAAF.

> >The alternative at Mangrove Mountain is entirely a
> >co-operative effort with countless 'personhours' of picking stones, > 
> >rolling, weeding and planting before the first glider left the >ground.  
>As a field where the Council has banned power >operations, it still needs 
>the work of about 6 people to get 1 >glider airborne.
>
>I guess masochism has its own rewards.

No.  Effort has its rewards.  Is it misanthropy that stops you from 
understanding the pleasure of being part of a team effort working 
successfully towards a goal?  You're missing a lot.

>...Well for me the local airport is 10 minutes across town. There's a 
>perfectly good airport 45 minutes drive from Adelaide and a few
>alternatives, Caboolture is about the same from Brisbane, Boonah not much 
>further, Bacchus Marsh isn't that far from Melbourne and there are other 
>alternative locations.

Gawler is more than 45 minutes for a fair part of Adelaide and the same is 
true of Lochiel, Monarto, Murray Bridge and Whitwarta - and Adelaide is the 
city most favourable to your case.  The gliding fields are over an hour for 
most of the Brisbane / Gold Coast / Sunshine Coast population.  Bacchus 
Marsh is OK if you live in Keilor but how about Sandringham or Dandenong?  
What was the alternative you had in mind?  Moorabin?

>There used to be a  gliding operation near Perth...

Yes.  When I was 10.  It was at Caversham.

>...and there's no reason why a few private pilots should not do that again.

Yes there is.  Caversham is now 2 miles abeam the Perth 21 ILS Outer Marker 
and is surrounded for nearly 30 miles by controlled airspace to ground level 
owned and jealously guarded by Perth, Pearce or Jandakot.  David Lawley's 
contribution tells the real story in Perth.

>I think that's more than the 20% you allude to.

I don't.  In any case, even if it's 25% it's enough to make my point.

>Don't forget also there's more to Aus than Sydney and Melbourne

...and Brisbane and Perth.  But it makes my case rather well if you're 
saying that we can ignore such a large potential market.

>and if you really want to fly gliders you should consider relocating.

I rest my case.  If the first thing we say to most potential glider pilots 
is "You'll have to shift where you live", we may as well give the game away.

>Queensland is pretty good.

Queensland is stunning.  But it's still hard to find a convenient gliding 
field.

>If I was in charge of a local airport I wouldn't permit the average gliding 
>club to operate either.

Yes, but you have an obsessive dislike of gliding clubs so that hardly 
counts as a rational argument.

>A private owner operation with people holding real licenses using aerotow 
>or self launch where a few people went cross country and were prepared to 
>fit in by actually getting off active runways promptly would be a different 
>thing.

No it wouldn't.  It'd be just like Camden except the clubs there have 
arranged to get their own grass strips so it's even better.  Camden is the 
only glider field I know (except the RAAF bases) which lives inside a 
control zone and happily coexists with a busy power operation weekends and 
weekdays.  The clubs have been able to reach formal arrangements with SAC 
and ASA because they can guarantee a level of flying discipline in a way 
which a bunch of private individuals simply couldn't.  Of course, the 
individuals could organise to have a couple of spokesmen negotiate with the 
operators and ATC and agree to be bound by agreements reached - but that 
would be the beginning of a gliding club by another name.

>Don't forget that most gliders are coming out of the factory with some kind 
>of motor fitted.

Yes.  In 2001.  But most gliders in Oz were built before 1981 and they don't 
have engines.  and the motorized ones built in 2001 cost from $A160K to 
$A400K+.

>Ab initio training could be handled by doing 30 or 40 hours in a Jabiru, 
>Skyfox or such...

Under the auspices of that GFA lookalike, the AUF.  And half the current 
members of most clubs would  never get to fly a glider if that was a 
requirement.  You may not care about that but I do.

>...followed by an aerotow glider conversion at one of the above
>locations. Fly with an instructor who is/was a glider pilot and he could 
>tailor your training towards gliding. The AUF is full of people who used to 
>fly gliders.

No it isn't.  There are very few ex-glider pilots among the AUF.  And my 
evidence for that is a solid as yours.

>You'd get a UL or GA license while you were at it, basically for free.

Free?? In your dreams.

>Those already with GA or UL licenses need only do the conversion.
>It seems to take a couple of days in the US.

No.  It takes considerably longer even for experienced power pilots.  They 
may get credit for hours but they still have to pass the glider check ride 
and quiz.

>Only problem is no free flying for gliding "instructors", no vast GFA
>structure, fewer rules, more freedom, no make work administrative jobs so 
>that the GFA hierarchy can put each other up for OA's.

Bah! Humbug! - You're a miserable coot sometimes aren't you, Mike?

Still, as Tiny Tim might have said, Merry Christmas to you and a less 
crochety New Year.

Graeme Cant

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