>
>
Dav,

>These so called people who accept responsibility should remember the
>responsibility to an organisation that probably provided the infrastructure
>for them to learn to fly in the first place. After all when YOU learnt to
>fly it was because of past instructors  efforts  and sacrifice exactly that
>which you whinge about now.
>
Wrong! I don't whinge about their efforts at all what I'm whinging about 
is a system that
forever makes me an impost on them. It would be much more satisfactory 
if the day to day
flying was handled by the mature pilots and the instructors could focus 
on instructing new
students. This is how it is in every other sport including every other 
form of flying. Gliding
is completely out of kilter with the expectations of the recreational 
public and that is why
it is in decline!

>As for comments regarding the number of pilots leaving the sport that is
>simply a reflection of the fact that gliding is not an option financially
>for 80% of people, if they can't afford it they can't fly.
>
Yes, but I'm not asking them to pay more money am I? As stated plainly 
in my post if they
choose to continue to fly under instructional supervision they will be 
able too. This system
*cannot* be destroyed even if CASA wanted to, because you can't get a 
license instantaneously
you have to do the hours, and you will need to fly solo, supervised 
(even GA pilots learn
to fly in such a system). So the current GFA system is under no threat 
from an RPL as long
as people such as yourself wish to instruct at no charge. Whether such 
people will continue
to exist is another matter, it's my belief that they won't, in which 
case if gliding insists on an
instructional supervisory system it will get very expensive! By freeing 
instructors of the legal
liability of being responsible for all pilots on the airfield it might 
even encourage people such
as myself to become instructors. At the moment though, I won't even 
consider it.
(comment from you about my attitude not being suitable to be an 
instructor not required!)

>Whether not not someone wishes to fly any other kind of aircraft is their
>own business but is totally irrelevant to this issue- the issue here is the
>future of gliding
>
No it isn't totally irrelevant, because where to you think some of the 
3000 or so glider pilots
have gone that have left the sport in the past two decades. They have 
choosen to fly other
kinds or aircraft. If the people I keep meeting on airfields is any 
guide, many of them would
love to return to some form of gliding but not the communistic system 
which drove them out
in the first place.

>and whether or not gliding counts towards other forms of
>flight is simply a matter of convenience for a very limited number of
>people if they want other licenses they are quite welcome- I would not dream
>of objecting, however what you do in your non gliding activities ie ppl etc
>is totally unimportant to this discussion.You may spend your money on any
>other form of flight but that is YOUR choice and of no relevance to gliding
>or this issue.
>
Total lack of vision here. There is a market for people who wish to 
learn to fly, not necessarily
gliders. If an RPL glider rating is actually recognised by other forms 
of aviation as of some
value (as opposed to the lousy 10 hours they credit us as worth now) 
then training initially
on gliders and then crossing over to GA or Ulight could be a *cheaper* 
option, and could
lead to more pilots getting hooked on gliding as they pass through. I'm 
not claiming that this
is by any means certain, but it is a real possibility.

Further more there is a large pool of "unreal" glider pilots who are 
currently enjoying flying
floppies and lawn darts but who will tire of that form of flight but 
want to continue to soar.
As they get older and have more disposable income, gliders are a logical 
next step for them.
However, this generation of pilots currently has the freedom to fly 
where and when they want
without instructional supervision. There is *NO* way that a large group 
of them will submit to
the restrictive GFA system.

I know this because I fly floppies and meet these guys all the time. 
Just yesterday a couple
of us managed to get a flight in, we went to the hill and launched flew 
and landed safely
without the presense of an instructor. Why is this not possible in the 
GFA system?

These guys  are facinated with sailplanes but taking any of them to a 
GFA club results in
immediate repulsion, a quote which I have used on this list before but 
is entrenched in my
mind is "glidings great but how do you stand all the grumpy old men". 
(And BTW
"grumpy old men" is a euphmism for anybody who seeks to lord it over 
other pilots.

>The one third that leave will be those unable to afford additional expense
>both those generous with their time and those not.
>
And how will the introduction of an RPL create additional expense for 
those that *choose*
NOT to apply for the license?

>If my club is not flying on a particular day I accept that, and wait for
>another day what is so difficult about that?
>
The fact that this is an unnecessary loss of opportunity to do what we 
are all about, fly gliders!
Some people (and I'm not refering to myself here) have limited 
opportunity to do so, lost days
simply results in less hours for that person and subsequently less 
income for their club!

>what real grounds do you have against my objection to this change?
>
The fact that if an RPL is introduced and you *choose* not to apply for 
one, it will have zero impact
on your chosen form of flying. However you seek to prevent all of the 
benefits that I have listed
above that could potentially come from the introduction of an RPL!

>I will not dwell on the delights of 1/3 of pilots leaving the sport as you
>state you are hoping will happen.
>
Now you are miss quoting me. I do not wish to see 1/3 of pilots leave 
the sport, my comment was
a sarcastic one that, If by people, such as myself, bettering themselves 
(at NO cost to those that
choose not to) causes those pilots to decide to give up gliding then I 
have nothing but contempt
for them. Your suggestion is equivalent to me going, "gee so and so has 
got an Air Transport
Licence, I feel so inadequate I'd better give up gliding." If I took 
this attitude I wouldn't blame people
for treating me with contempt.

>No part of gliding should be sacrificed for the convenience of those who
>wish to fly other aircraft of any form. Despite their rantings of
>benefits-to them.
>
It's not benefits to them, it's benefits to the whole gliding movement. 
It's a sad reflection of the
state of gliding that most "pure" gliding people can't see this.

>My apologies to those of you that do not own motor gliders
>
It's not about motor gliders, it's about AUGC not losing flying days. 
Furthermore your implied
attitude that because I have a motor glider I must be rich and rich 
people are contemptable smacks
of soviet style communistic beliefs. The fact is that I have worked 
extremely hard to get both
my aircraft, rebuilding one from a wreck and the other from not much 
better. But that is irrelevant,
nor should it make me a better or more worthy person from someone who 
works for an income and
chooses to buy their glider instead. I personally can't fathom a person 
spending (as a house mate
of mine once said) "$150K on an aircraft with no engine and only one 
wheel!" But I do not despise
them for it, nor do I seek to prevent them from flying it without the 
supervision of an instructor.

It's about taking responsibility for your own recreational enjoyment and 
not imposing on others.
In the current system I can decide on Saturday morning if I want to go 
flying, or I can decide to
stay in bed. The rostered instructor doesn't have that luxury, if they 
decide not to front for the
day then they will face a barage of critism from those pilots that can't 
fly (this happened recently
at my club and the shock waves are still rolling around the club). This 
is a ridiculous situation,
sure the students might have a right to feel a bit peeved but should be 
able to accept it, instructors
are people and their lives impose on their recreational time. The other 
pilots however have every
right to be annoyed with a system that causes the loss of flying!

Dav you and I will have to agree to disagree because I will never be 
swayed that we should
preserve the current system. The current system has seen the departure 
of over 3000 pilots
in 20 years. Unless gliding makes some serious changes then this trend 
will continue. A
streamlined licensing system will bring direct benefits to those that 
apply for it and could
bring many benefits to gliding as a whole if managed correctly. If the 
national body for soaring
was proactive about it instead of seeking to preserve it's little 
enclave, then it should be possible
to develop such a system without any negative impact. If the GFA refuses 
to be part of such a
system then it will be swept aside and your beloved form of flying will 
go with it. Don't doubt
for a minute that this will happen, it's happening already, there is 
another generation of soaring
pilots who exist outside the GFA system, their gliders are becoming more 
and more sophisticated
I have friends who are buying or building such aircraft.

In business they say either change or die, the GFA refuses to change,

It's your funeral

rgds

Pete.



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