or 6.
Go to you tube and get 6 loops of the deck.
----- Original Message -----
From: "JR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
<aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net>
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 7:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 180 degree turns - teardrop
>From 200 feet you could get half a loop in....
JR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham Watts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
<aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net>
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2008 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 180 degree turns - teardrop
Agree Terry.
Mike Valentine would have said 'This type of maneuver should always be
watched from a safe distance'
Terry Neumann wrote:
> Texler, Michael wrote:
>> To throw the cat amongst the pigeons.
>>
> Thanks Michael, This pigeon admits to being quite alarmed by some
> aspects of these papers =-O .
>> Here are some links with attached research, regarding the best way to
do a 180 (if required).
>> Any comments or disagreements?
>>
>> OK, if people want to poo-poo this, please provide a rational and
reasoned explanation why (i.e. use a scientific and objective argument).
> I certainly won't poo-poo it, because I'm not strong on scientific and
> reasoned discussions with professors who are clearly expert in their
> field. As Mike says ".....They did the math.". Therefore as an
> exercise on paper it is quite credible.
>
> Unfortunately however, math or not, the history is that a lot of
> people who have attempted this option died in so doing. This
> suggests that whatever the math might say, it's a helluva risky
> manoeuvre which frequently fails to work out as the theory
> suggests. The concept might be plausible, even convincing, but this
> is no consolation if you are in the wreckage, or perhaps worse, if you
> are one of those who is put in the dreadful position of being the
> second or third person on the scene of the accident. (The first
> person BTW is the pilot - the second may be the instructor who was
> demonstrating the exercise).
>
> The difference between theory and practise is often much greater than
> the theory would suggest. IMHO this one such situation.
>
> As for turnbacks at 200 ft? Not if I'm around thank you! Especially
> if I'm on the inside of the aircraft.
>
> The other problem with a theoretical approach to a situation like this
> is that it might indeed be achievable with an above average pilot, but
> a pilot with lesser ability (or experience - probably both) sees it
> done once effectively by the club hotshot, programs himself to
> consider the same option if it happens to him, but when it does, he is
> 50 feet lower, 5 knots slower in speed, about the same number of
> seconds behind what the aircraft is thinking, and a tad excessive with
> the rudder....... You can guess the rest.
>
> It's usually much easier and quicker to derig the aircraft in the next
> paddock than to have to pick up all the pieces on the airfield.
> That's still how I would prefer to approach an event like this. I'm
> not sure if this is sufficiently rational or reasoned, but wreckage on
> the ground has a way of re-evaluating theoretical argument - often
> very dramatically.
>
> Terry
> (With apologies for possibly excessive cynicism, but pigeons can be
> like that if the cat is significant ....)
>
>
>> http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/impossible/possible.html
>>
>> http://jeremy.zawodny.com/flying/turnback.pdf
>>
>> "Conclusions A simplified model of the turnback maneuver after engine
failure during the take-off climb segment has been developed. The model
shows that optimum conditions for returning to the departure runway result
from climbing at Vmax , executing a gliding turn through a 190-220deg
heading change, using a 45deg bank angle at 5% above the stall velocity in
the turn using a teardrop shaped flight path."
>>
>> P.S. Thanks to Daryl McKay for providing these links.
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
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