On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 08:51:51 -0800 (PST), JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In terms of the above, there is a huge difference between how the > issue is played out in this case. In the case of Qadianis, there is a > strong consensus that they actually aren't Muslim, specifically for > the reason that they say Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a prophet.
> JS> Some questions I would ask are, do the Ahmadis who are believers in > Ahmad's prophethood, themselves, self-designated non-Muslims, or are > they non-Muslims because they are declared as such by the Muslim > nation or by Pakistan? Gilberto: The followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (who claimed to be the Mahdi and the Second Coming of Christ) identify themselves as Muslim. The movement split into "Qadianis" who say he was a prophet and "Lahoris" who don't. There have been laws on the books in Pakistan declaring them (at least the ones who say he was a prophet) to be non-Muslim. > Also, do they believe that Ahmad is a prophet like unto Muhammad, > or a prophet of lesser stature than Muhammad? The ones who claim he was prophet don't say he was greater than Muhammad. > If a prophet of lesser > stature, then I would say that 'prophet' is a loose word used in many > different ways. It may be that 'prophet' is another way to say saint. I think this whole issue is tricky. > G: Finality of prophethood, simply is not that clear, central, or as > important an idea in Christianity. And the group which accepts > different forms of prophethood is more prevalent and varied in > Christianity. > > JS>: I think one reason why I do not see what you are saying is that I am > taking Muhammad's declaration of 'katam' in the same light as Jesus's > declaration that he will return at the end of time as he went up to heaven > from the cave. Neither event will happen until the End Time. > All I'm doing is trying to describe what Christians believe and what Muslims believe. I'm not necessarily saying anything about what Jesus or Muhammad (peace be upon both) actually intended, especially not from a Bahai perspective. > Prophethood, as accepted by some Christian sects, does not mean that > these prophets, Joseph Smith. White, or others, are the Return of Christ. And did not say that they were. (But I also wouldn't necessarily exclude it, for example the Unification Church teaches that Rev. Moon was the Second Coming and his writings are given a special status) > All > these groups, even Mormons, preach that Jesus will return later. > Therefore, their view of 'Prophethood' does not equal the Islamic view of > Prophethood. I don't know what you mean. Even in Islam, Jesus will return later. What does that prove? > In Islam, Muhammad Himself is a Prophet. Why? Because the > word 'Khatam' is a reference that no other Muhammad will return until the > End. No, that there will be no new prophets. Jesus already came before and so he isn't a new prophet. And the Mahdi isn't a prophet. > In Christianity, though some recognize prophets, none of them > recognize these prophets as Christs. It's not clear to me how you are using "Christs". It literally means "annointed" and kings were traditionally annointed. So in some sense, many people are Christs. Even Cyrus the persian king who ended the Babylonian captivity is called "christ" in the Bible. And in some Christian circles when a person is called to preach they talk about having "received an annointing" in some sense. > > The Christian prophet does not equal the Qur'an prophet because in the > Christian sense, Jesus was not a Prophet. !?!? Jesus is called a prophet in the Bible though. He's just also alot more. "My people are hydroponic" __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[email protected] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
