The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Matt, I think I understood what you wrote and mostly agree... except I'm not sure that reductionism is necessarily the difference that really makes a difference. I would suggest that Chomsky is someone who writes about world events (wars, embargos, military alliances, etc.) and quite persuasively presents them as a product of wealthy elites who want to protect their economic interests.
David Icke writes about world events and presents them much less persuasively as the product of orchestration by reptilian humanoids from another dimension. I would suggest that in a formal sense there are similarities but obviously I'm going to take one much more seriously than the other. So I would suggest that the main problem isn't with saying that there are powerful elites who "control the world" but in identifying those elites with occult groups from ancient times and lizard people. On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Matt Haase <[email protected]> wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > Dear Gilberto, > > I used two types of categories; conspiracy theories (i.e. the study and > research of actual conspiracies, and theorizing how they took place), and > conspiracy theories (i.e. seeing a conspiracy in every event in the history > of humanity, as being a plot by a group of few people/aliens/reptilians to > step-by-step take over the world.) I am not critical of the theorizing of > actual conspiracies that have and do take place, or the events that very > possibly could have been conspiracies. But I am critical of the notion that > everything which happens in this world, is being orchestrated by some hidden > hands of 30 people or something. Sometimes chaos just happens, sometimes > terrorists do just blow up a vegetable market for their own agenda (and not > the agenda of the Illuminati, Reptilians, etc.) There are different types of > conspiracy researchers, and I don't want the real theorists (Bill Weinberg, > Peter Werby, etc) to have a bad name because they are lumped in with the > same crowd that says Reptiles who live on the Moon are reciting Mantras all > day to make humanity feel stressed out and aggressive toward each other. The > two types of researchers live in a completely different world, in my view. > > Salam Alaykum > > "Conspiracies do exist in the world. There is evidence and proof > to demonstrate that" > > > > > On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 12:40 AM, Gilberto Simpson > <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> I think it is weird when people try to dismiss conspiracy theories as >> a category. Every claim is either true or false on its own merits. The >> US government really has performed medical experiments on Blacks and >> Latinos. The CIA really has worked to overthrow different >> democratically elected governments (Mossadeq, Arbenz, Allende). There >> really are organizations (like Skull and Bones, the Carlyle Group, >> etc.) which manage to bring together powerful people and >> decision-makers in ways which are not completely public or accountable >> (or straight-up secret). The RAND corporation really has been >> advocating that the the US support some kinds of Islam over others in >> the world. >> >> I agree with you that simplistic binary thinking is a problem but I'm >> not sure I would say it is a defining property of conspiracy theories. >> On the one hand you definitely have folks who think that the conflict >> between Democrats and Republicans is a fight between good and evil. On >> the other hand, there is probably somebody out there who views world >> events as the product of a complex, multi-front rivalry between the >> Reptillians, the Illuminati, the Catholic Church, the Circle of the >> Black Thorn, the Masons, the Priory of Sion, the Mafia, the >> Bildebergs, the Rothschilds, the CIA and the elders of Zion. Also you >> have folks like Chomsky who don't invoke colorful villains with >> complex competing agendas but basically look at the world with a class >> perspective and basically look at US foreign policy as being >> manipulated by wealthy business interests. >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Matt Haase <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> > >> > Conspiracies do exist in the world. There is evidence and proof to >> > demonstrate that, but there is a difference between a conspiracy theory, >> > and >> > a conspiracy theory. The former is about searching for evidence and >> > actual >> > facts about certain events and situations in order to find the truth, >> > and >> > the latter is a worldview about how history itself works. Conspiracy >> > theories view the world as a binary state. There are definite good guys >> > and >> > definite bad guys. There is no gray area. There is a hidden Elite of >> > evil >> > souls who want to globalize the world into a totalitarian dictatorship >> > for >> > different reasons, depending on who is talking. For David Icke, they are >> > reptilian shapeshifters. For Alex Jones, they are "Nazis and >> > Kabbalists." >> > For William Cooper, they were "socialists", "ufos" and "New Agers." The >> > problem with conspiracy theories (the conspiracy theory of history >> > itself), >> > is that the world isn't that simple. Sometimes things just happen, and >> > there >> > was no hidden hand orchestrating it or causing it to happen. Conspiracy >> > theories are also fundamentalist in that they don't allow for any kind >> > of >> > dissent. If you question someone like Alex Jone's or David Icke's >> > research, >> > they will just accuse you of "working for the Elites" themselves, and >> > thus >> > your opinion doesn't count. >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Stephen Gray <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> >> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_(conspiracy_theory) >> >> >> >> I remember president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was pointed out as in league >> >> with >> >> George Bush as being parts of an orchestrated plot to take over the >> >> world. >> >> But, the more I looked into it the more plausible it became. >> >> >> >> http://www.taroscopes.com/miscellanous-pages/weapons.html >> >> http://www.taroscopes.com/miscellanous-pages/weapons-additional.html >> >> >> >> Any one familiar with quotes of MA? >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> >> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] >> >> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to >> >> >> >> mailto:leave-532578-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu >> >> Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to >> >> [email protected] >> >> Or subscribe: >> >> http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st >> >> Baha'i Studies is available through the following: >> >> Mail - mailto:[email protected] >> >> Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st >> >> News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st >> >> Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >> >> New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >> > >> > __________________________________________________ >> > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: >> > mailto:[email protected] >> > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to >> > mailto:leave-532593-68452.e157d5dc5efabb63696f251595c88...@list.jccc.edu >> > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to >> > [email protected] >> > Or subscribe: >> > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st >> > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: >> > Mail - mailto:[email protected] >> > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st >> > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st >> > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >> > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >> >> __________________________________________________ >> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] >> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to >> mailto:leave-532652-953325.e9a9b042dd227e4657deb0ff0d384...@list.jccc.edu >> Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to >> [email protected] >> Or subscribe: >> http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st >> Baha'i Studies is available through the following: >> Mail - mailto:[email protected] >> Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st >> News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st >> Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] >> New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > > __________________________________________________ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-532815-68452.e157d5dc5efabb63696f251595c88...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > [email protected] > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:[email protected] > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-532899-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [email protected] Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[email protected] Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
