Hugh: I think that Frank has a valid point. Obviously poorly made compost tea can contain E.coli, the question is how do we stop it happening? Perceptions are everything, if it can be traced that someone got ill from compost tea then there are legions of highly paid people who will push the perception, right or wrong, that all compost tea is bad. No amount of huffing and puffing will change the perception once instigated, rumour and innuendo is the way that chemical companies fight and there's plenty of suckers out there willing to listen to them. Ideas anyone? David C
----- Original Message ----- From: "Hugh Lovel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, 13 November 2002 12:18 PM Subject: Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps > Dear Frank, > > You're right to a point, mate. The presence of E. coli means next to > nothing. Everyone has it. Right? > > The real question is the presence of E. coli 0157:H7. Can everyone agree to > that? It is a virulent pathogen, and it kills. But it is a very SPECIAL > kind of E. coli. In fact it is commonly found in feedlots. Never elsewhere > so far as I know, and I've been watching. > Which should prohibit compost teas from feedlot manures, but why prohibit > any others? > > If we could agree on where 0157:H7 occurs, then blanket testing for E. coli > is meaningless. We must test for E. coli 0157:H7. > > Forget the rest. How relevant is it? E. coli is not the problem, 0157:H7 is. > > Please, give me good science, not scare propaganda a la Dennis Avery, the > infamous scientific prostitute. And please don't endorse his arguments by > wishy-washy agreement that we "have to beware of coliforms in compost tea." > We all have coliforms. I don't think there are any exceptions. Compost teas > may have coliforms. Sure. Will Brinton is doubtless right. Big deal. > Coliforms are ubiquitous. Scare tactics? Why succumb to them? Please, let's > everyone get their brains on. > > As you can tell, my Scotch blood rises and my gorge swells in anticipation > of a truly non-scientific debate (battle) in which significance pales into > nothingness and mass is the persuading factor. I feel like I'm putting on > my breastplate and bucklers and flexing my arms, shoulders, torso and > legs, preparing to confront the unscientific bastards promoting this > agenda. I think they know better, the SBs. > > Thank God I can laugh. > > Best, > Hugh Lovel > > > > > >Dear Hugh, > > > >The fact that we all carry benign strains of E. coli in our guts, and are > >colonized therewith shortly after birth, does not mean that there are not > >virulent strains of E. coli from animal sources that we need to be concerned > >about. > > > >The E. coli 0157:H7 issue is covered in a number of places; one recent paper > >that is interesting is: > > > >http://www.fass.org/fass01/pdfs/Callaway.pdf > > > >"The infectious dose is indicative of the virulence > >of pathogenic bacteria, and E. coli O157:H7 > >has an extremely low infectious dose. In > >one outbreak the contamination level of E. > >coli O157:H7 in uncooked hamburger meat > >was less than 700 cells/patty and some > >victims ingested very little of the > >(improperly) cooked meat (Griffin, 1998)." > > > >The Walkerton water outbreak here in Canada underscored the manure problem > >associated with 0157:H7: > > > >http://www.med.uwo.ca/ecosystemhealth/education/casestudies/walkertonmed.ht m > > > >Now, Hugh, I am willing to accept that BD folks as a group are at low risk > >of having and spreading 0157 around. But, the NOSB has to deal with a larger > >universe of people than that, with composts coming from feedlot animals, and > >with an influx of newbies who may or may not know their excrement from their > >waxy shoe protectant, if you catch my reference... > > > >Compost tea is new. By that I mean compost tea as Elaine defines it, > >aerobically amplified and nutrient added. Whatever we should say about the > >Bess study, she showed that you can grow E. coli in a compost tea > >environment. For the most part E. coli is simply an indicator for the fate > >of other pathogens, chosen for its ease of monitoring, but in its 0157 form > >(and a few others) it is a potent pathogen in its own right, and at very low > >infective doses. > > > >The majority of 0157 outbreaks have been meat related, but several have also > >occured in salad materials, fruit juices, and sprouts. > > > >So, concern that 0157 might pass into compost tea through compost and into > >the food supply through application of tea and retention on produce surfaces > >is not absurd. It is reasonable, and a small amount of precautionary > >activity can ensure that we develop this exciting new tool in agriculture > >safely and responsibly. > > > >This is not a bad thing, nor the end of the world; it just echoes the age > >old truth that along with greater power ( the ability to quickly multiply > >the bacterial count of a watery extract of compost a thousand fold) comes > >greater responsibility ( the need to be even more careful to avoid > >multiplying a pathogen). > > > >I guess this also means, that yes Virginia, it does so matter where your cow > >pattie comes from....;-) > > > >I suppose I could say something about stampeding, fear, ignorance, sticking > >your head in the sand, and really doing your homework on the science of the > >matter, but I already have enough bad karma for being unpleasant with Jane, > >so I won't go there.... > > > >But Hugh, there are an awful lot of people out there who think there really > >is a pathogen problem, including Dr Brinton, and even Elaine herself. > >Pretending it doesn't exist is not the answer. > > > >Frank Teuton > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Hugh Lovel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 3:43 PM > >Subject: Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps > > > > > >> Dear Frank, > >> > >> The E. coli scare is absurd. I question whether there is a single human on > >> this continent that doesn't have E. coli in their intestines. On the other > >> hand, the HR 157:H7 strain that is so pathogenic is a feed lot breed. It > >> isn't cattle herds on pasture that have it, it is herds in confinement > >> being fed on grain by-products. This produces a chronic diarhea condition > >> in the cattle and hence they get HR157:H7. My local slaughter house that > >> only slaughters local pastured beef gets tested twice a week and has never > >> had any HR157:H7 show up. > >> > >> It is pathetic when fear stampedes people and they ignore the science of > >> the subject. > >> > >> Best, > >> Hugh Lovel > >> Visit our website at: www.unionag.org > >> > > Visit our website at: www.unionag.org > >
