I do not understand the concern about compost tea. A survey released this week in Oz has found that something like 40% of women and 65% of men do not wash their hands after using the toilet. I consider that any risk from foliar sprays of compost tea pales into insignificance......
Gil D & S Chamberlain wrote: > Hugh: I think that Frank has a valid point. Obviously poorly made compost > tea can contain E.coli, the question is how do we stop it happening? > Perceptions are everything, if it can be traced that someone got ill from > compost tea then there are legions of highly paid people who will push the > perception, right or wrong, that all compost tea is bad. No amount of > huffing and puffing will change the perception once instigated, rumour and > innuendo is the way that chemical companies fight and there's plenty of > suckers out there willing to listen to them. > Ideas anyone? > David C > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hugh Lovel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, 13 November 2002 12:18 PM > Subject: Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps > > > Dear Frank, > > > > You're right to a point, mate. The presence of E. coli means next to > > nothing. Everyone has it. Right? > > > > The real question is the presence of E. coli 0157:H7. Can everyone agree > to > > that? It is a virulent pathogen, and it kills. But it is a very SPECIAL > > kind of E. coli. In fact it is commonly found in feedlots. Never elsewhere > > so far as I know, and I've been watching. > > Which should prohibit compost teas from feedlot manures, but why prohibit > > any others? > > > > If we could agree on where 0157:H7 occurs, then blanket testing for E. > coli > > is meaningless. We must test for E. coli 0157:H7. > > > > Forget the rest. How relevant is it? E. coli is not the problem, 0157:H7 > is. > > > > Please, give me good science, not scare propaganda a la Dennis Avery, the > > infamous scientific prostitute. And please don't endorse his arguments by > > wishy-washy agreement that we "have to beware of coliforms in compost > tea." > > We all have coliforms. I don't think there are any exceptions. Compost > teas > > may have coliforms. Sure. Will Brinton is doubtless right. Big deal. > > Coliforms are ubiquitous. Scare tactics? Why succumb to them? Please, > let's > > everyone get their brains on. > > > > As you can tell, my Scotch blood rises and my gorge swells in anticipation > > of a truly non-scientific debate (battle) in which significance pales into > > nothingness and mass is the persuading factor. I feel like I'm putting on > > my breastplate and bucklers and flexing my arms, shoulders, torso and > > legs, preparing to confront the unscientific bastards promoting this > > agenda. I think they know better, the SBs. > > > > Thank God I can laugh. > > > > Best, > > Hugh Lovel > > > > > > > > > > >Dear Hugh, > > > > > >The fact that we all carry benign strains of E. coli in our guts, and are > > >colonized therewith shortly after birth, does not mean that there are not > > >virulent strains of E. coli from animal sources that we need to be > concerned > > >about. > > > > > >The E. coli 0157:H7 issue is covered in a number of places; one recent > paper > > >that is interesting is: > > > > > >http://www.fass.org/fass01/pdfs/Callaway.pdf > > > > > >"The infectious dose is indicative of the virulence > > >of pathogenic bacteria, and E. coli O157:H7 > > >has an extremely low infectious dose. In > > >one outbreak the contamination level of E. > > >coli O157:H7 in uncooked hamburger meat > > >was less than 700 cells/patty and some > > >victims ingested very little of the > > >(improperly) cooked meat (Griffin, 1998)." > > > > > >The Walkerton water outbreak here in Canada underscored the manure > problem > > >associated with 0157:H7: > > > > > > >http://www.med.uwo.ca/ecosystemhealth/education/casestudies/walkertonmed.ht > m > > > > > >Now, Hugh, I am willing to accept that BD folks as a group are at low > risk > > >of having and spreading 0157 around. But, the NOSB has to deal with a > larger > > >universe of people than that, with composts coming from feedlot animals, > and > > >with an influx of newbies who may or may not know their excrement from > their > > >waxy shoe protectant, if you catch my reference... > > > > > >Compost tea is new. By that I mean compost tea as Elaine defines it, > > >aerobically amplified and nutrient added. Whatever we should say about > the > > >Bess study, she showed that you can grow E. coli in a compost tea > > >environment. For the most part E. coli is simply an indicator for the > fate > > >of other pathogens, chosen for its ease of monitoring, but in its 0157 > form > > >(and a few others) it is a potent pathogen in its own right, and at very > low > > >infective doses. > > > > > >The majority of 0157 outbreaks have been meat related, but several have > also > > >occured in salad materials, fruit juices, and sprouts. > > > > > >So, concern that 0157 might pass into compost tea through compost and > into > > >the food supply through application of tea and retention on produce > surfaces > > >is not absurd. It is reasonable, and a small amount of precautionary > > >activity can ensure that we develop this exciting new tool in agriculture > > >safely and responsibly. > > > > > >This is not a bad thing, nor the end of the world; it just echoes the age > > >old truth that along with greater power ( the ability to quickly multiply > > >the bacterial count of a watery extract of compost a thousand fold) comes > > >greater responsibility ( the need to be even more careful to avoid > > >multiplying a pathogen). > > > > > >I guess this also means, that yes Virginia, it does so matter where your > cow > > >pattie comes from....;-) > > > > > >I suppose I could say something about stampeding, fear, ignorance, > sticking > > >your head in the sand, and really doing your homework on the science of > the > > >matter, but I already have enough bad karma for being unpleasant with > Jane, > > >so I won't go there.... > > > > > >But Hugh, there are an awful lot of people out there who think there > really > > >is a pathogen problem, including Dr Brinton, and even Elaine herself. > > >Pretending it doesn't exist is not the answer. > > > > > >Frank Teuton > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Hugh Lovel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 3:43 PM > > >Subject: Re: Search for results of Elaine's testing of bd preps > > > > > > > > >> Dear Frank, > > >> > > >> The E. coli scare is absurd. I question whether there is a single human > on > > >> this continent that doesn't have E. coli in their intestines. On the > other > > >> hand, the HR 157:H7 strain that is so pathogenic is a feed lot breed. > It > > >> isn't cattle herds on pasture that have it, it is herds in confinement > > >> being fed on grain by-products. This produces a chronic diarhea > condition > > >> in the cattle and hence they get HR157:H7. My local slaughter house > that > > >> only slaughters local pastured beef gets tested twice a week and has > never > > >> had any HR157:H7 show up. > > >> > > >> It is pathetic when fear stampedes people and they ignore the science > of > > >> the subject. > > >> > > >> Best, > > >> Hugh Lovel > > >> Visit our website at: www.unionag.org > > >> > > > > Visit our website at: www.unionag.org > > > >
