> From: Dan Bron > Sent: Tuesday, 23 November 2010 14:16 > > BTW, re: > > > http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/JAL/Package%20Manager/jpkg > > One problem I have with the J7 beta process in general is that too much > knowledge is implied or assumed. Now, I am a J enthusiast and there > was a time I had a handle on most everything going on. > > But that's not true anymore,
I know what you mean! > and even to just test drive the J7 beta I > had to spend a number of hours going through old Forum archives and the > Wiki. > The information I needed was all spread out. (That's one reason I > posted my installation methodology in full.) I suppose this is a consequence of the people involved spending their time coding rather than documenting - a common problem! The other issue is how quickly things change at times. I wrote a similar full installation walk-through for the Gtk IDE [1] a couple of weeks ago and it is already way out of date. Having said that, jpkg and its wiki page have been available in J602 since the middle of last year (before the beta was available). They have also been linked to/discussed on the forum several times. :) > > For getting J in front of kids/Jnewbies so they can do 2+2 etc, > > I think the JHS interface is fine and in some ways preferable > > to the traditional GUI > > I know the browser is fast becoming the new OS, and my GUI habits are > obsolescing. But I don't think we're there yet, and I do think new > users (but maybe not kids?) will expect a traditional GUI. Yes I am still firmly in the GUI IDE camp for routine development too. And I agree that it should be "easy" to get the Gtk GUI up and running. However for people to get a feel for J's "awesome power", (and for a number of other use cases) I think the browser interface is fine. For some educational uses I think it will actually be preferred because it will be possible to save the log of an interactive session inclusive graphics. > One reason I harp on the GUI is I'm a die-hard keyboard cowboy and from > what I read in old beta threads, is to use JHS with the keyboard, I'm going > to have to hit esc-esc-alt-double-bucky-Q to open a new IJS, because the > browser already owns so much keyboard real estate. Also, JHS doesn't > work with my preferred browser (Opera), so I have to use a non-preferred > browser. :D The keyboard shortcuts aren't quite that bad! Eg. Esc J to open a new IJS. Esc j to return to IJX. I'd really like to see the JHS GUI and the GTK GUI be as similar as possible to facilitate users starting on one Front end and moving to another with as few hiccups as possible. One example: To clear the IJX window: J6 Jwd: smwrite_jijs_'' JHS IDE: jlog 0 NB. then refresh jijx window Gtk IDE: term_clear_0_ '' (Or View|Clear Terminal) > I think this has been JSoftware's hope for many years, but so far it > has yet to materialize, with the exception of a few supercontributors. > Though happily their number has grown in recent years, > yourself included. > > But, cynic (and non-contributor!) that I am, I think this approach is a > bit cart-before-horse. Once we have a large, thriving community, a lot of > work can be offloaded onto it (without asking, even). But until then, > someone with a stake has to invest (a lot) into growing the community to the > point that it is self-sustaining. > > I also think it's a little contradictory to want to depend upon the > community, but withhold from it J's greatest treasure: its source. I > once understood this to be part of JSoftware's business model, but now I'm > no longer clear on what their business model is, or whether they even have > one any more (e.g. whether they provide J now as a community service and > side business, and their individual incomes derive from other activities). Yes I agree that it would probably help to formalise where things stand here so that everybody's role is clear. It is a shame that there isn't some way of accessing some marketing/sales/planning/community development skills to help out the "great nerds" [2]. Those skills aren't my strong suit either but it seems that there must be some way to make money out of such an awesome language. That same reference [2] suggests that there may be change ahead though.... [1] http://www.jsoftware.com/pipermail/beta/2010-November/004945.html [2] http://www.jsoftware.com/pipermail/chat/2010-June/003819.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
