I'm totally behind any "make the OOTB experience easy" campaign!
Of course the desired end result is not so clear cut.
I agree that it would be nice for installer to update the install to the latest
base library and versions of addons, although I do see some benefits for having
the post-install system in a "known" state. Perhaps a compromise would be for
the installer to do a jpkg update on completion and report the jpkg status
("Newer version of base library available, x addons can be updated, x addons
not installed.), alerting the user that they don't have the latest versions.
BTW: from the jpkg wiki page [1]:
'install' - install specified addons if not installed locally, upgrades them to
latest JAL version if already installed
For getting J in front of kids/Jnewbies so they can do 2+2 etc, I think the JHS
interface is fine and in some ways preferable to the traditional GUI (that
doesn't mean I think that it couldn't be better! IMO "better" means more like
the Gtk IDE - see my previous posts to that effect on the forum.
The out-of-the-box experience is almost there for JHS. IMO it just needs some
more work on the starting shortcut/batch file. Perhaps the existing jhs701 icon
can be renamed "JHS server" and an additional icon "JHS session" could be
provided that starts the server (if not already started) and opens a browser
tab at the jijx page. The following command line works fine for me:
"C:\Program Files\j701\bin\jconsole.exe" ide/jhs/core -js "browse_j_
'http://127.0.0.1:65001/jijx' [ jhs 0"
Alternatively the current icon that starts the jhs server could be simply
replaced with the new one (given that those who want to just start the server
that are likely to know how to do that for themselves).
Regards the Gtk IDE (especially on Windows)
My ideal would be a single (more attractive) installer that prompted me to
provide Administrator rights if required, stepped me the through the various
options (install type, IDE type(s), Addons to install) and then went about its
business. Somebody would need to do the work to create such a beast though and
reading between the lines on the forum I hear Jsoftware saying they don't have
the resources to do that, but would be happy for the Community to do so. I've
used InnoSetup a few years ago and I imagine it wouldn't be that hard to do.
As a fallback my suggestion would be for a separate Gtk IDE installer that
included the required Gtk binaries (or ran getgtkbin)
[1] http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/JAL/Package%20Manager/jpkg
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Dan Bron
> Sent: Tuesday, 23 November 2010 11:49
> To: 'Beta forum'
> Subject: Re: [Jbeta] GTK IDE issues
>
> Ric wrote:
> > I agree that the System install option should behave correctly
> > however it is possible for multiple users to share a custom install
>
> Thanks for the link. At the moment, I'm only concerned with the
> out-of-the-box experience.
>
> J being a development system, a user can make it do whatever he wants.
> What
> I'm concerned with is what it does without him "making" it do anything.
>
> This might be different if the J community were larger, and attracting
> new
> users wasn't as important.
>
> > there might be issues when the system attempts to save snapshots?
>
> Worked OK for me. At least, no error messages. I haven't played with
> snapshots yet (don't know how).
>
> > AFAIK the JHS ide is functional out-of-the-box including
> > an icon (in start menu).
>
> That worked ok for me too. I was just making recommendations for what
> the
> final system should look like (most people will expect a GUI IDE,
> because
> that's still standard; so I'm suggesting we meet those expectations,
> but
> give the JHS option for more advanced users, or others who want it).
>
> > Most of the Addon installs/updates should be possible using
> > the JHS ide GUI if preferred.
>
> I don't want the user to have to take any manual steps, console-based
> or
> graphically, to get a working system out-of-the-box. It would be nice
> if
> the user got the most updated everything on day 1, rather than working
> with
> out-of-date (perhaps years out-of-date) scripts without knowing it, and
> hitting issues that are resolved in newer versions.
>
> Presently, JAL is small enough that there's little reason not to
> download
> the whole thing by default.
>
> > install 'all'
>
> Thanks! Will this do updates in addition to fresh installs (e.g. if I
> have
> the Addon foo installed already, will install 'all' bring it up to
> date)?
>
> > My preference would be to retain the option of a minimalistic
> > install (without all addons or Gtk binaries) as well.
>
> If we do this, JSoftware needs to maintain explicitly, step-by-step
> instructions for getting a full, working, up-to-date system, all in one
> place, and advertised prominently with the download (perhaps when the
> download completes it pops up a [updated!] HTML page describing all the
> steps needed).
>
> And if these instructions are going to be maintained in English and
> carried
> by the installer anyway, why not maintain them in an executable format
> and
> have the installer taken? The executable format will even be easier to
> maintain!
>
> I don't get this desire for a minimalistic install. If it's to
> minimize
> download time, why? Most users are going to have to spend (even more)
> time
> and bandwidth downloading the missing pieces anyway.
>
> And honestly, with today's bandwidths, downloading everything
> (*everything*:
> J, JHS, JGTK, GTK, help, a copy of the Wiki, a copy of all the Forums
> going
> back forever, hell, a copy of comp.lang.apl going back forever) would
> really
> not be a burden, time-wise. Download time and bandwidth should not be
> a
> consideration here.
>
> If it's to take the burden of a full installer off JSoftware by putting
> it
> on its users, I totally disagree with that concept.
>
> -Dan
>
> PS: Many people on these Forums express interest in getting J in front
> of
> kids. That's never been a goal of mine, but consider how the current
> situation will impact it.
>
> Scenario A: "Download J here. Install it (pick "Single User"). Now
> click
> the first icon that showed up in your Start menu. There J is! Now
> type
> 2+2".
>
> Scenario B: "Download J here. Install it (pick "Single User"). Now
> click
> the JHS icon that showed up in your Start menu. No, ignore that small
> black
> window. Now open your browser. Now type http://127.0.0.1:65001/jijx#
> into
> the URL bar. You might want to bookmark that. Now click the "link"
> menu.
> No, on the menu bar inside the web page that says "J HTTP server", not
> the
> browser's menu (no, I don't know why it's called "link"). Now click
> the
> "pacman" item. No, it's not the game. Just pay attention. Click
> "upgradeable". Click "base library". Click "upgrade selected". Now
> click
> the "Not installed" button. Click on gui/GTK. Hit install. OK, now
> hit
> "Not installed" again. Click ide/gtk. Hit install. OK. Now go to
> your
> Start menu, right-click on the "jcon701" icon. Hit copy. Right-click
> on
> the J64-701 folder icon, hit "paste". Open the Start menu again, right
> click on "jcon701 - Copy". Hit "properties". In the Target field,
> type
> gtkide at the end. No, don't erase what's there, just add gtkide to
> the
> end. OK, now on the general tab, type J GTK into the name field. Hit
> OK.
> Now, go to your Start menu again. Click the J GTK icon. There J is!
> Now
> type 2+2."
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
