CatBus;427575 Wrote: > Give me an example album and I'll tell you. HINT: it's different than > you've tagged it.
this is where i just have to laugh... ok, so you presumably see yourself as the ultimate and final authority on tagging, as to what is and is not correct. interesting. guess what? i feel the same way! but only as to MY files. and more importantly, other people do too, and so do a lot of the major apps / tagging services like gracenote/cddb and AMG and so on... i think you missed my point completely. there is NO correct, b/c there are 1. so many interpretations as to what the standard means and how to implement it, and 2. even if people in this forum or all users everywhere of slim stuff could agree as to the interpretation of #1 the fact remains that other apps and services, which are much bigger and more widespread than slim, and in fact normally determine what data is initially brought to slim, do THEIR OWN THING, and thats just the way it is, right or wrong, correct or incorrect. so what i keep trying to argue for, with people who don't want to hear it, is for slim to UNDERSTAND that what i just described IS THE REALITY, and therefore the smart thing is for slim to simply work with many possible permutations, via OPTIONS. to some degree, it does already, i acknowledge that. i just say it should do it moreso. and i am not saying slim should handle ANY situation, but that right now the line is way too close to the "slims way or the highway" side of things, and too far from common marketplace realities. if slim took a fresh look with fresh eyes at many COMMON ways tags are done in the marketplace, i think they would reconsider and redraw where that line is. also, i advocate for getting the most out of slim with a MINIMUM of tags, meaning the user should NOT have to spend time adding tags they shouldn't need to get a desired result, esp if a lot of major apps don't even support the tag! CatBus;427575 Wrote: > In fact I'll give YOU some examples of unambiguously-tagged music, and > as a bonus SqueezeCenter doesn't deal with them correctly, how's that? > It's a twofer--proof that correct unambiguous tagging exists, and that > I'm willing to admit SqueezeCenter has bugs. Of course, the bugs I'm > pointing out aren't with the VA logic, because I haven't seen any > evidence of such a bug yet. > > Example 1: Richard Thompson/Watching the Dark > > There are tracks by many artists on this album (RT, Fairport > Convention, etc), but all of those bands feature Richard Thompson. So, > multiple artists, but it would never be found under "Various Artists" in > a record store. It's a Richard Thompson album. This is a good example > because it actually shows off a bug that's only fixed in the 7.4 branch. > See how easy it is for me to admit when there are actual bugs? So the > ALBUMARTIST and COMPILATION tags for every track would go like this: > > ALBUMARTIST=Richard Thompson > ALBUMARTISTSORT=Thompson, Richard (this is what's fixed in 7.4) > > Compilation could optionally be set to 0, but it's not necessary. Any > music software reading these tags knows it's not a compilation, and it > should be filed under T for Richard Thompson. If it can't figure that > out, it's a bug. i'm not sure what you want me to get out of this example? i'm glad it works for you as you want it to and that it does what you describe above. however i would point out that a program like EAC wouldn't assign an AA. i can't say how many apps don't assign AA tags at this point, but some still don't. (and i notice the others often get a few tracks AA tag wrong, but thats just bad auto-tagging) so, when SC scans it, it calls it a comp. as you and i know, it isn't a comp. yes, SC called it a comp correctly if you only go by the logic of its own decision making process, but that assumption, that ANY artist mismatch, of even ONE song, on an album means its a comp, is to me, laughably stupid. and in fact, that is WHY SC REQUIRES a user to set an AA tag to defeat it. i don't think that should be how its done. i think you should be able to OPTIONALLY turn off that "logic" and still get a reasonable exp out of SC. i would suggest that there are probably several ways to then implement such a proposed reasonable exp, and those could be discussed and determined, IF we first could turn off the VA logic. CatBus;427575 Wrote: > Example 2: Now let's take a tribute album--a tribute to Neil Young by > various artists. Now, these types of albums can be found in two > locations: Various Artists AND Neil Young. So you'd tag each track like > this: > > ALBUMARTIST=Neil Young > ALBUMARTISTSORT=Young, Neil > COMPILATION=1 > > And here, the software can know it's a compilation that can be filed > under Y for Neil Young. What does SqueezeCenter do? I'm honestly not > sure--I don't have this album. It's not a VA logic problem though--it's > just a "how do I display the data" problem, which is different. please keep in mind i am only using 7.3.3 which is itself a beta, i'm not where you are. also, i am not [yet] concerned with sort tags. i don't want to use them at this point, and part of my thrust here is that SC should work good with a MINIMUM of tags, so to me, comp tags and sort tags should not be necessary, and frankly, neither should AA tags. as to your example above, and based on the post after yours, it seems that the album will NOT sort in "Various Artists" EVEN IF it has a comp tag, but SC will still know its a comp. (atrocity, did you find a specific album WITH comp tags and AA set that did NOT sort in VA, and instead sorted under AA?) thats good. but that all only works if you have all those tags to start with. and i am not pigeonhole-ing any ONE thing as "the problem" be it the schema, scanner, or how data is displayed. frankly i don't care what thing or mix of things is responsible, i am trying to point out that the experience itself is not satisfactory for someone how comes to slim with basic tags in place. CatBus;427575 Wrote: > The point is that the music above is correctly and unambiguously tagged. > If SqueezeCenter does not deal with these correctly (and note that the > released, stable version, DOES NOT) that's fine--I can be happy in > knowing I'll never have to alter my tags to accomodate some weird > software's tagging scheme. I can just have the weird software fixed, or > stop using the weird software altogether. Squeezecenter fixes bugs so > rapidly compared to others that I've never been tempted to stop using > it. Some software out there doesn't even support the COMPILATION tag > yet! the main problem with this line of thinking is that slim does not CREATE or EDIT the data brought to it. slim/SC is a USER of what OTHER apps create by design, and so it MUST be FLEXIBLE, whether or not you find the other apps reasonable. winamp doesn't support the comp tag, but its a great app and does everything i need it to VERY well. you see, it is POSSIBLE to not support the tag and get an expected and reasonable, even FUN experience out of the app. let me try a different approach with you... would it not make sense for SC to create large datasets of collections of music, by differing apps [most common and mainstream as well as some niche ones] and using differing tagging, and then see how slim/SC deals with it? so, they take 1000 albums of all different kinds of music and comps and whatever, and rip the 1000 of them repeatedly using itunes, WMP, winamp, EAC, dbpoweramp, jriver, and so on... and in addition to that, they duplicate some of the collections, and alter tags on the dupes, adding some tags, etc... and then see what SC does with it? if they had done that, they would have seen for themselves why bug 8001 was needed, and i wouldn't have had to bring everyone around. and i think if they did that, they would see the VA detection sucks, esp for apps that don't set an AA at rip. and obviously, for apps that do set an AA, VA detection isn't needed. so why have it? again, i'm just suggesting it be optional, not removed. but don't get lost in the weeds, i am not talking only about AA issues or VA detection issues, i m talking about normal users with normal tags from normal apps, and the overall exp they get out of slim/SC when they first use it. i can tell you, from my own exp, it was confusing and irrirtating, esp given that other apps were fine. my basic problem isn't that i had to adjust mistakes in my tags, but that slim is so rigid in both what it wants tagged and how, and in how it will present it. -- MrSinatra www.lion-radio.org using: sb2 & sbc (my home) / sbr (parent's home) - w/sc 7.3.3b - win xp pro sp3 ie8 - 3.2ghz / 2gig ram - 1tb wd usb2 raid1 - d-link dir-655 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MrSinatra's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2336 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=57922 _______________________________________________ beta mailing list [email protected] http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/beta
