Hi Dan, Mostly your assumptions are correct.
I have poured steps both solid and hollow. I have never sloped the cheeks but I have considered sloping the risers back at the bottom as an alternative to making a nose overhang on the tread. This reduces the chance of chipping or cracking some of the nose off. When I poured a hollow set I just made a hollow box more or less like the stairs but allowing something like five or six inches space around all sides between the box and the inside finished form. Mostly I did that because I was mixing the cement with a small rented mixer and wanted to reduce the work by reducing the volume of cement I needed to make. I probably should have included some rebar at least in the landing and stair treads but I didn't and so far as I know they are still there since 1975. These outside basement stairs are solid I think there are 9 of them. I was able to use one inch factory grade plywood I bought locally for the forms heavily reinforced with 2 by 4 including cross bracing over the top and at intervals I pulled steel wire through the plywood form twisting it tight to keep it from spreading under the weight of the cement. You won't need forms quite that rigid but do not under estimate the weight and force of that weight when forming for concrete. When assembling the forms I try to join the members in such a way as they reinforce each other. That is, the form for the front of the riser nails to the edge of the side form to help reinforce the sides not spreading. If forming a nose on the step then a narrower board for the riser nailed through the side wall into the end of the riser then complete the height of the riser with another board nailed to the outer face of the riser and nailed into the edge of the side wall form so that there is an inch and a half or more space at the top of the riser to the top of this applied board to form the nose of the step. Bevel the top of the riser so you have half a chance of getting the darn thing out once the cement is cured. by nailing in this way you get nails at right angles to each other to help lock things tighter. Like I said, probably a better way is to lean the riser out on a slight angle so you don't have any potentially delicate edges to break off. You would be well to bevel the edges of those riser boards too so they don't leave an angled impression in the step below and you have a better reference for floating the step tread surface above. I don't think I have ever poured that way but I do remember a neighbour doing so. He also ran a board up the middle of the risers on edge with bracing fixed to the middle of the riser form boards to help keep them from bowing. I think that pouring over rubble might pose some problems. It is not unusual to embed rubble such as boulders in concrete to make up volume though. Often it is added to the mix when you mix it yourself. It makes destroying the concrete a bear but each cubic foot of stone is a cubic foot of concrete you don't have to mix. You could add rubble as you pour making sure to work it well into the cement and keeping well away from the edges as you pour. Pouring directly over rubble though might result in an unstable mess with the portland draining through with the water and leaving the rest less consistent. There are people who could probably give you better advice about that. A mass like that shouldn't probably need any steel in it particularly if you have a truck deliver. Your particular situation may not lend itself well to that, depends on what sort of delivery is available. They have pretty long shoots on those trucks but yours is an up hill as well. The basement steps took nearly a truck load and one option was to have air added. I think they also add a detergent agent, the result is a more porous cement which is said to be better in frost conditions. They can also add fiber to the mix, I didn't have that but I did mix some with my brother-in-law for a cement floor in an animal shelter and we found that the fiber rose with the cream as we floated and troweled, something we didn't want the animals to be ingesting.I decided I didn't want to be shaving my stairs so I didn't include it. These days they can also deliver through a hose under pressure. I don't know if they expect you to wrestle with the hose though, the only time I ever saw it done it appeared to take much strength and not a little skill. With enough friends and enough beer you might barrow the cement into place. As you fill the form the trick is to use a thin shovel or even a stick of plywood three or four inches wide to puddle the cement down into the form working along the walls and the back of the risers. this keeps the cement from forming voids and helps to distribute the cream for a nicer finish. To the extent you can, working the flat trowel back and forth along the wall just below the surface of the concrete as it is being poured can also help. This must be ongoing as the concrete gets heavy very quickly. Cement is stiff enough to hold a surface on the steps as you go. You can get a little too much rising up but it is easily screeded off the top and can be thrown up into a higher level. I usually begin trowling pretty early working under the edge of the next riser keeping tight under that riser to minimize any impression it leaves on the tread below. Once the surface is beginning to show dry I get really busy with the trowel to raise the cream and make a nice finish which you may later wish to roughen a little for traction with a stiff broom or brush. Finally, while it is still just a little damp you can have at it with the rounded edging trowel. It is remarkable how dry the cement can feel and still be worked but leave it too long and you won't make an impression on it. You work the rounded edge into the cement just at the inner edge of the riser at the top and begin by just working side to side forming an increasingly bigger slot for the edging trowel to fit into. As the slot enlarges begin dropping the face of the trowel to the step tread and continue working until it is flat and to the depth you want. Some are happy just to put a little rounding on the lip of the step, others like a bit of a depression along the edge before the round over. It is all esthetic but something a blind person can certainly do. These days people often stamp patterns into concrete using heavy rubber moulds. These can be anything from floral to tile patterns. I have never done this myself. Once the cement is poured and finished you should probably cover it with a tarp. Wet sacking is often used and it makes keeping the cement damp with a little hose spray from time-it-time over the next couple of days much easier. I am not usually as fussy about that as they seem to recommend but it is true that slowing the cure down will make for harder and stronger concrete. Concrete continues to cure for years. Now for the good news. They sell preformed concrete steps and stoops at really pretty good prices these days with wonderful smooth finishes you can probably have positioned with a crane. Of course they are not so much fun and rob you of the anxiety of a pour going wrong or having bad weather to do it in and all that but they are available for the faint of heart. Hope this gives you some useful ideas and maybe a touch of inspiration. Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skype DaleLeavens Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear habitat. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Rossi To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:26 PM Subject: [BlindHandyMan] pouring cement stairs. Anyone ever poured a set of cement stairs? One future project for me might be to rip out my front steps up to my porch. They are cement but in pretty bad shape. Many people in the neighborhood have had their's patched, but within a couple of years, they are in just as bad condition. The patches just don't hold up. So, I was thinking about just starting over. So, do you build a form that just has the sides and risers there, but no treads so that you can use a float or trowel to smooth over the tread? If so, doesn't the weight of the cement from the riser above force the cement in the lower tread to overflow? Or is cement thick enough to resist the pressure? Or, is this not how you do it at all? There are four steps up to my front porch. There are sloping cheek walls on either side of the steps. I assume that the cement itself is not solid all the way threw to the ground, but poured over rubble? Is that correct? -- Blue skies. Dan Rossi Carnegie Mellon University. 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